The Democrat Party Hates America

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Alexiev
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Alexiev »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:53 am
Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:31 am Bobby Sands was famous.
Sorry...but I'm not understanding what his choice has to do with me, or with the present point.
Bobby Sands (and by inference other terrorists and potential terrorists) wanted to be labeled an enemy combatant instead of a criminal. He promised to starve himself to death if the Brits would not reclassify him and treat him as a prisoner of war. In fact, he did starve himself. Many other IRA members followed suit, but the UK authorities fed them intravenously so they didn't die.

The inference is that terrorists think being classified as an enemy combatant instead of a criminal is an important matter, and confers on them some sort of either glory, or at least justification.. You may not think so, but that's irrelevant. If terrorists and potential terrorists are emboldened by being called enemy combatants, perhaps we should avoid emboldening them.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 4:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:53 am
Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:31 am Bobby Sands was famous.
Sorry...but I'm not understanding what his choice has to do with me, or with the present point.
Bobby Sands (and by inference other terrorists and potential terrorists) wanted to be labeled an enemy combatant instead of a criminal.
I'm sorry...I just don't see what point this makes. "Terrorist" and "combatant" are not at all mutually exclusive categories. For example, every person who commits an act of terroristic killing also, presumably violates the laws of the state against murder, and thus becomes a criminal too. One can be one, or the other, or both; and the preference of the perpetrator is entirely uninteresting. So what Bobby Sands wanted can't be less important than it is. The truth is all that matters.

Bobby Sands could not be an "enemy combatant," because he did not belong to another nation. He had to be a terrorist and a criminal, as it was his own polity he was harming. But the Venezuelan drug lords can be all three -- terrorists, criminals AND, as they are rightfully citizens of sovereign nations, not of the US, enemy combatants and invaders as well. Give them the lot.
Alexiev
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Alexiev »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 4:21 am
Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 4:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 3:53 am
Sorry...but I'm not understanding what his choice has to do with me, or with the present point.
Bobby Sands (and by inference other terrorists and potential terrorists) wanted to be labeled an enemy combatant instead of a criminal.
I'm sorry...I just don't see what point this makes. "Terrorist" and "combatant" are not at all mutually exclusive categories. For example, every person who commits an act of terroristic killing also, presumably violates the laws of the state against murder, and thus becomes a criminal too. One can be one, or the other, or both; and the preference of the perpetrator is entirely uninteresting. So what Bobby Sands wanted can't be less important than it is. The truth is all that matters.

Bobby Sands could not be an "enemy combatant," because he did not belong to another nation. He had to be a terrorist and a criminal, as it was his own polity he was harming. But the Venezuelan drug lords can be all three -- terrorists, criminals AND, as they are rightfully citizens of sovereign nations, not of the US, enemy combatants and invaders as well. Give them the lot.
Bobby Sands disagreed. He thought he was NOT Britidh, or subject to British law. By calling him a criminal instead of an enemy combatant, the Brits were refusing to honor his status as a patriot and a warrior.

In the case of Venezuelan drug lords, we should do the same. They are common criminals and should be denied the more honorable title of "enemy combatant".
Belinda
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:05 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:42 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:31 am
Well, I'm a Theist, so I think all land is held only by the grace of God. But if there's no God, then it's impossible to understand what you mean by anybody legitimately "owning" anything, including land. In that case, might makes right: whoever has the land, has it. No more can be said. Power is all their is. Nietzsche saw that point so clearly. From a Nietzschean perspective, the fact that the Israelis are stronger than the Palestinians militarily is as much justification as can be had for them keeping it.

However, maybe you're not in agreement with Nietzsche, and you think that there can be some other grounds of a moral right to own. In that case, I can't imagine what it would be, and you'd have to explain it to me...because nothing obvious suggests itself. How would you judge who has a right to a particular piece of land, absent any appeal to Divinely given right?

I'd be interested in knowing what metric you'd use.
Is Gaza held by Palestinians by the grace of God?
Well, he allowed them to have it for a time, for sure. But land ownership, in Theist thinking, is stewardship. We answer for what we do with what God has allowed us to have.
How do you know when God approves of an owner of a land and when God doesn't?
The more important question is, what does God approve of? What I know is of considerably lower importance in what happens.
Are there times when humans do things that are not approved of by God?
Oh, yes, of course. That's called "sin."
And if so, how do you know who has God's "grace" and who doesn't?
Some people have thought that whatever happens, that's what God has allowed, and thus approved. But that's clearly not the case, since, as you suggest, mankind can do things of which God does not approve. In such cases, God is patient and calls men to repent; and if they will not, what often happens is that they end up losing that privilege of stewardship that they once had.

You can read about this process in Torah, actually, in reference to a thing called "the Babylonian Captivity," which is what happened when the nation of Israel failed to take their stewarship responsibility under God seriously. They went into exile, for a time; and then God restored the nation.
Is that something you decide for yourself or do you consult God directly in order to find out who the rightful owner of a piece of land is?
Well, God owns all the land, as I said before. And like any real owner, He can designate who occupies what place for what time. But apart from His saying so, nobody owns any particular land.
Clearly , Immanuel's God is a punitive God
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Gary: How do we know if Israelis have not been good stewards of the land and have angered God? How do we know if God is happy with the way Israel has responded in the current crisis? Is it possible that God is angry with the Israelites and has therefore taken favor away from them among many people on Earth? If critics of Israel have the upper hand in discussions about the current situation in Gaza, could that be a sign that Israel is doing something wrong? Perhaps God is saying, ease up on my other children or something? Is it possible that we know God's verdict by responding truthfully and thoughtfully to those who criticize us?
A few notes on a crazy-making topic.

Some religious Jews (not a small percentage) cannot accept the state of Israel insofar as they believe Israel is (still) in “galut” (exile) and that condition can only be restored by God. Israel in its modern form was established by radical atheists. And it was established through conquest, driving the Arab residents off their land and out of their cities.

Jews did live there prior to these post WWll events, but as a minority and alongside the Arabs. It all changed when the aggressive, non-religious Jews became aggressive and initiated the present state.

If we take the religious view that Israel could only be restored by an act of God, and that it was not established in that way, we are left with the theological conclusion that Israel is doubly illegal: in international law and in theological law.

The only way to justify Israel — contrary to Immanuel’s assertion — is by reference to strict power-principles: i.e. a Nietzschean analysis. Israel is a quintessential example of a Nietzschean state. However, the founders employed (in Machiavellian fashion) a religious narrative of “return” and “restoration” of the Jews to their lands, with the implied understanding that “God” is behind it all.

The use of these god-based narratives in the Jewish post-war era is legendary, but not often clearly seen. The “suffering Christs” of the Postwar are the mistreated Jews, and Evangelical Christians in a strange switcheroo “empower” the (often secular, often atheist, often non- and even anti-Christian) as a sort of Christ-figure. Jewish destiny, for Evangelicals, is to be atoned by unquestioned “support” for Israeli aggression no matter how brutal, no matter how it appears so distant from a Christian-like attitude.

Jewish identity, when examined closely, is really quite absurd. It is based, ultimately, on genetics and therefore on “race” in the most basic sense. In the inner philosophy of strict Jewish thought you find the most extreme form of supremacism as you can imagine: God has ordained the Jew to rule the Earth and the Jewish “soul” is of a different and a superior stuff when compared to the souls of the Gentile.

Secular Jews (a large component of Israel) are quasi-Jews. They are, perhaps, genetic Jews. But Jewish identity is based on strict religious identification. If you veer from that identification and those strict religious practices, in that way you incur God’s wrath. And Jews and Judaism are, quite literally, always subject to God’s wrath. In fact God’s wrath is on-going.

Since this is all true, the “belief-system” will always lead one to disasters. For many religious Jews the counter-divinity-establishment of Israel is a set-up for just one more historical catastrophe which are the foundation-stone of being Jewish.

It is a bizarre but strangely fascinating topic. You will be embroiled in it whether you wish to or not.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:44 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:03 pm You were using the term “enemy combatants” deliberately there to mean the same thing that Alexiev and I have been using it to mean - the military non POW status that has fewer rights to not get tortured than any civilian or proper military prisoner - right?
… exactly and in the only way the term is used universally. No one yet being deported is actually an enemy combatant by any genuine definition.
Oh well. Every new fiasco where ICE wilfully ignores the constitution to seize powers for itself until it can provoke an Insurrection Act situation is an opportunity for Hegseth to find a new hiding spot for his vodka while nobody is looking.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 6:10 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 4:21 am
Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 4:15 am

Bobby Sands (and by inference other terrorists and potential terrorists) wanted to be labeled an enemy combatant instead of a criminal.
I'm sorry...I just don't see what point this makes. "Terrorist" and "combatant" are not at all mutually exclusive categories. For example, every person who commits an act of terroristic killing also, presumably violates the laws of the state against murder, and thus becomes a criminal too. One can be one, or the other, or both; and the preference of the perpetrator is entirely uninteresting. So what Bobby Sands wanted can't be less important than it is. The truth is all that matters.

Bobby Sands could not be an "enemy combatant," because he did not belong to another nation. He had to be a terrorist and a criminal, as it was his own polity he was harming. But the Venezuelan drug lords can be all three -- terrorists, criminals AND, as they are rightfully citizens of sovereign nations, not of the US, enemy combatants and invaders as well. Give them the lot.
Bobby Sands disagreed. He thought he was NOT Britidh, or subject to British law.
How did that work out for him?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:02 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:05 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:42 am

Is Gaza held by Palestinians by the grace of God?
Well, he allowed them to have it for a time, for sure. But land ownership, in Theist thinking, is stewardship. We answer for what we do with what God has allowed us to have.
How do you know when God approves of an owner of a land and when God doesn't?
The more important question is, what does God approve of? What I know is of considerably lower importance in what happens.
Are there times when humans do things that are not approved of by God?
Oh, yes, of course. That's called "sin."
And if so, how do you know who has God's "grace" and who doesn't?
Some people have thought that whatever happens, that's what God has allowed, and thus approved. But that's clearly not the case, since, as you suggest, mankind can do things of which God does not approve. In such cases, God is patient and calls men to repent; and if they will not, what often happens is that they end up losing that privilege of stewardship that they once had.

You can read about this process in Torah, actually, in reference to a thing called "the Babylonian Captivity," which is what happened when the nation of Israel failed to take their stewarship responsibility under God seriously. They went into exile, for a time; and then God restored the nation.
Is that something you decide for yourself or do you consult God directly in order to find out who the rightful owner of a piece of land is?
Well, God owns all the land, as I said before. And like any real owner, He can designate who occupies what place for what time. But apart from His saying so, nobody owns any particular land.
Clearly , Immanuel's God is a punitive God
Well, He's not your maiden aunt, that's for certain. He's a God of justice as well as mercy. There is mercy for those who seek Him. Those who don't take Him seriously find out why they should have. Either way, it's a choice they make. Consequences follow very naturally.

Pretty fair, actually.
Alexiev
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Alexiev »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:48 pm How did that work out for him?
I don't know. You're the one who believes in a supernatural afterlife. Perhaps --as a Catholic and patriot-- he is in heaven.

Here's an article about how Trump's America resembles Latin American dictatorships by "disappearing" people.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ctatorship
Alexiev
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Alexiev »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:50 pm [
Clearly
Well, He's not your maiden aunt, that's for certain. He's a God of justice as well as mercy. There is mercy for those who seek Him. Those who don't take Him seriously find out why they should have. Either way, it's a choice they make. Consequences follow very naturally.

Pretty fair, actually.
According to this, God says, "If you worship me I'll show you mercy, but if you don't, have fun in hell."

He sounds like Donald Trump.
Impenitent
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Impenitent »

Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 10:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:50 pm [
Clearly
Well, He's not your maiden aunt, that's for certain. He's a God of justice as well as mercy. There is mercy for those who seek Him. Those who don't take Him seriously find out why they should have. Either way, it's a choice they make. Consequences follow very naturally.

Pretty fair, actually.
According to this, God says, "If you worship me I'll show you mercy, but if you don't, have fun in hell."

He sounds like Donald Trump.
he sounds like any leftist

building utopia 101...

-Imp
seeds
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by seeds »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:51 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:45 pm The point is that as long as you two guys would be perfectly okay with the "Native Americans"...

(with the aid and support of the most powerful military force on the planet)

...reclaiming the land that you and your ancestors have been living on for hundreds of years, and removing you from your homes and livelihood and forcing you and your children to live in what has been called an "open-air prison,"...

...then, by all means, support Israel.

However, if you think you might have a problem with that scenario and hold a grudge for what those "Native Americans" and their powerful supporters did (and keep doing) to you and yours,...

...then, for crying out loud, wake up to what's going on over there.
_______
What "two guys" are you referring to? Not me I hope.
Gary, I apologize if I misread the intent behind your statements.

However, when you say things like this...
They [the Israelis] didn't want, or try, to move the Gazans. They didn't want the war, either. But Hamas started it, Hamas is keeping it going, and only Hamas can shut it down...and they simply won't.
...it makes it sound like you're buying-in to IC's short-sighted horse crap.

According to Wiki, "Hamas" is simply an acronym for an Arabic phrase that means...
"Islamic Resistance Movement"
"Hamas" is a word that, as per usual, has taken on "boogeyman" status due to western propaganda.

I'm sure that you and everyone else has heard all of this before,...

... but the point is that Hamas didn't "start" any of this mess, for it was "started" by the West in the early 20th century with the "Balfour Declaration."
AI Overview wrote: The Balfour Declaration, issued in 1917, pledged British support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine.
Again, if you're having trouble understanding why "Hamas" doesn't want to "forgive and forget" the grave (and ongoing) injustices that the Palestinian people have endured since they were violently expelled from their homes and land in 1948,...

...then just try to imagine the - never surrender - resistance that would take place in the United States if, again, the original indigenous people of North America were somehow able to reclaim the land...

(via divine decree from the "Great Spirit," along with the aid of, say, Russia and China)

...and violently expel all of its citizens...

(including all of its heavily armed 2nd amendment "patriots"/southern rednecks, for example)

...from their homes and force them to live in an "open-air prison."

Anyway, Gary, again, whatever you do, do not listen to IC's short-sighted horse crap that tries to justify...

(via decrees from, again, the "Great Spirit," which, according to Christianity, would be "Jesus," of all people)

...the ongoing slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in an undeclared (but real) war that the West and Israel originally started.
_______
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexiev wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:48 pm How did that work out for him?
I don't know.
Yeah, you do. Look it up, if you're in doubt.
Gary Childress
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Gary Childress »

seeds wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 1:34 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:51 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:45 pm The point is that as long as you two guys would be perfectly okay with the "Native Americans"...

(with the aid and support of the most powerful military force on the planet)

...reclaiming the land that you and your ancestors have been living on for hundreds of years, and removing you from your homes and livelihood and forcing you and your children to live in what has been called an "open-air prison,"...

...then, by all means, support Israel.

However, if you think you might have a problem with that scenario and hold a grudge for what those "Native Americans" and their powerful supporters did (and keep doing) to you and yours,...

...then, for crying out loud, wake up to what's going on over there.
_______
What "two guys" are you referring to? Not me I hope.
Gary, I apologize if I misread the intent behind your statements.

However, when you say things like this...
They [the Israelis] didn't want, or try, to move the Gazans. They didn't want the war, either. But Hamas started it, Hamas is keeping it going, and only Hamas can shut it down...and they simply won't.
...it makes it sound like you're buying-in to IC's short-sighted horse crap.

According to Wiki, "Hamas" is simply an acronym for an Arabic phrase that means...
"Islamic Resistance Movement"
"Hamas" is a word that, as per usual, has taken on "boogeyman" status due to western propaganda.

I'm sure that you and everyone else has heard all of this before,...

... but the point is that Hamas didn't "start" any of this mess, for it was "started" by the West in the early 20th century with the "Balfour Declaration."
AI Overview wrote: The Balfour Declaration, issued in 1917, pledged British support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine.
Again, if you're having trouble understanding why "Hamas" doesn't want to "forgive and forget" the grave (and ongoing) injustices that the Palestinian people have endured since they were violently expelled from their homes and land in 1948,...

...then just try to imagine the - never surrender - resistance that would take place in the United States if, again, the original indigenous people of North America were somehow able to reclaim the land...

(via divine decree from the "Great Spirit," along with the aid of, say, Russia and China)

...and violently expel all of its citizens...

(including all of its heavily armed 2nd amendment "patriots"/southern rednecks, for example)

...from their homes and force them to live in an "open-air prison."

Anyway, Gary, again, whatever you do, do not listen to IC's short-sighted horse crap that tries to justify...

(via decrees from, again, the "Great Spirit," which, according to Christianity, would be "Jesus," of all people)

...the ongoing slaughter of innocent men, women, and children in an undeclared (but real) war that the West and Israel originally started.
_______
Well, the quote I've outlined in red above, was actually a quote from IC. I was having some formatting issues with quotes toward the end of the conversation, and accidentally included some of IC's words without quotes as though I had said them. Formatting quotes gets off track sometimes and as much as I fiddle with it, I can't figure out how to fix it. So I just left it like it was, knowing that IC would know the difference but didn't think of how others would perceive it. My bad.
Belinda
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:50 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:02 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:05 am
Well, he allowed them to have it for a time, for sure. But land ownership, in Theist thinking, is stewardship. We answer for what we do with what God has allowed us to have.


The more important question is, what does God approve of? What I know is of considerably lower importance in what happens.
Oh, yes, of course. That's called "sin."

Some people have thought that whatever happens, that's what God has allowed, and thus approved. But that's clearly not the case, since, as you suggest, mankind can do things of which God does not approve. In such cases, God is patient and calls men to repent; and if they will not, what often happens is that they end up losing that privilege of stewardship that they once had.

You can read about this process in Torah, actually, in reference to a thing called "the Babylonian Captivity," which is what happened when the nation of Israel failed to take their stewarship responsibility under God seriously. They went into exile, for a time; and then God restored the nation.

Well, God owns all the land, as I said before. And like any real owner, He can designate who occupies what place for what time. But apart from His saying so, nobody owns any particular land.
Clearly , Immanuel's God is a punitive God
Well, He's not your maiden aunt, that's for certain. He's a God of justice as well as mercy. There is mercy for those who seek Him. Those who don't take Him seriously find out why they should have. Either way, it's a choice they make. Consequences follow very naturally.

Pretty fair, actually.
Yet I am not intimidated, because He knows all about why I am not as good as JC.
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