Philosophy Now Forum

Godfree wrote: I disagree ,,man invented god for a reason ,

Humans invented many gods for many reasons.

to explain what they didn't know ,
And many other reasons, But mainly because they believe that the universe was created.

.......
so what would you need to hear to feel we are reaching that point ,
what would you consider proof god does not exist ,

This is the stupidest question you can ask, since you claim to have disproved the existence of gods.

lots of you here tell me my proof is no proof at all ,

I am not telling you that , and never have.
I am telling you that you have not offered ANY proof for the existence of gods.
Show me the money!

but none of you have offered what you would consider proof ,

That is for you to say. I do not think that you can disprove a negative, but I am willing to listen to your "PROOF".

like you know I'm wrong , but you don't know whats right ,???

You are not wrong, you are dumb in a literal sense; dumb as in silent.

maybe I should rephrase this ,
the best proof we have ,,??? have you a better proof ,???

What proof, where?

Godfree wrote:I like to sum things up , and I can explain whats going on here ,
I'm trying to get you lot to find a reason to move on ,,!!!!
but you are all it seems stubbornly sticking to your known universe ,
the world needs to move on , to drop this religion and get real ,
you all seem to be saying , we don't think you have enough evidence ,
we don't want to move on , we want to stay here in the comfort and security of the known universe , what most scientists believe , is the truth ,
most people believe god is real ,
what most people think is no more likely to be real or the truth ,
than my lone opinion ,
is religion sane , not in my opinion , is society sane , most of them are religous , therefore no they are not sane ,
should I trust their opinion , NO,,!!!
I should say not all of you ,just most of you ,,

chaz wyman wrote:

Godfree wrote:I like to sum things up , and I can explain whats going on here ,
I'm trying to get you lot to find a reason to move on ,,!!!!
but you are all it seems stubbornly sticking to your known universe ,
the world needs to move on , to drop this religion and get real ,
you all seem to be saying , we don't think you have enough evidence ,
we don't want to move on , we want to stay here in the comfort and security of the known universe , what most scientists believe , is the truth ,
most people believe god is real ,
what most people think is no more likely to be real or the truth ,
than my lone opinion ,
is religion sane , not in my opinion , is society sane , most of them are religous , therefore no they are not sane ,
should I trust their opinion , NO,,!!!
I should say not all of you ,just most of you ,,

I have moved on. It is you that wants to found a creed based on god, not me.
I am an atheist by virtue of the fact that I have moved on. I no longer define myself in terms of god, or his denial.
You are the one with the problem - you refuse to accept your atheism and continue to define yourself in terms of religion.
GET A FUCKING LIFE!

Godfree wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

Godfree wrote:I like to sum things up , and I can explain whats going on here ,
I'm trying to get you lot to find a reason to move on ,,!!!!
but you are all it seems stubbornly sticking to your known universe ,
the world needs to move on , to drop this religion and get real ,
you all seem to be saying , we don't think you have enough evidence ,
we don't want to move on , we want to stay here in the comfort and security of the known universe , what most scientists believe , is the truth ,
most people believe god is real ,
what most people think is no more likely to be real or the truth ,
than my lone opinion ,
is religion sane , not in my opinion , is society sane , most of them are religous , therefore no they are not sane ,
should I trust their opinion , NO,,!!!
I should say not all of you ,just most of you ,,

I have moved on. It is you that wants to found a creed based on god, not me.
I am an atheist by virtue of the fact that I have moved on. I no longer define myself in terms of god, or his denial.
You are the one with the problem - you refuse to accept your atheism and continue to define yourself in terms of religion.
GET A FUCKING LIFE!

So you would abandon your fellow man and let them rot in their fundamentalism ,
No - not even YOU in your fundamentalism. It just is simply the case that when anyone tries to destroy another's beliefs they resist by hardening their hearts against you.
You will not "sweep away' religion by demanding that you can prove that god does not exist as you cannot.
You can only lead by example. It is always a bad example to be dogmatic and carry faith to ridiculous lengths as you do.

you wouldn't reach out the helping hand and try and save some of these poor lost souls , you seem like a heartless bastard ,
it is you that defends the status quo ,

You have no evidence and no right to say that. I could just as easily say the same about you, with as much veracity.
You will not gain my respect by your verbal diarrhoea trying to say things that I am more qualified to know than you, idiot.

you havn't moved on , your comfortable with what we have now ,
NO, I have moved on because I am comfortable with what I have.
WHo the FUCK IS WE? Is that the royal 'we'? DO you think you have the right to speak for all humanity.
I think not - not with your intellect - PLEASE!
YOU???!?! A person who is incapable of thinking for himself and still defines himself in terms of GOD??
You are a joke!


you don't mind christian organizations doing charitable work ,
True - but only when they do not make conditions concerning religious dogma - Christian Aid does not do this.
However the US government (A SECULAR ORGANISATION) does make religious conditions.
You can assk me more if you wish to get your arse out of your head because you are ignorant of this and are just knee jerking with your twisted ideology. But it seems to me that you are living in a condition of blissful ignorance on this and other matters.

so you wouldn't fight for change ,
you would say "every man for himself"
NO
but then we have an even bigger gap between the knows and knows not ,
just like the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger ,
any of your ancestors slave traders by any chance ,,,???

Yes, I will fight for you to know more , because there is precious little evidence of thinking from you.
Why do you think I keep on responding to you?

Godfree wrote:well it's nice you can be so charitable Chaz ,
as to lower yourself to respond to such an uneducated individual as myself Chaz , I feel humbled that you would take the time out of your important life to put me straight , theres hope for the world yet ,
ok so we can call it the Chaz foundation ,
based on free thinking and Atheism etc ,
and you can take over from the church ,
well done ,,one less job for me ,,,!!!

chaz wyman wrote:

Godfree wrote:well it's nice you can be so charitable Chaz ,
as to lower yourself to respond to such an uneducated individual as myself Chaz , I feel humbled that you would take the time out of your important life to put me straight , theres hope for the world yet ,
ok so we can call it the Chaz foundation ,
based on free thinking and Atheism etc ,
and you can take over from the church ,
well done ,,one less job for me ,,,!!!

I am free from religion because I do not define myself as an atheist.
You will never be free of god whilst you continue to define yourself in the terms you have defined for yourself.
Freethinking is not to adhere yourself by denial of a thing you think does not exist.
Belonging to a foundation, organisation, party, or church is the moment your free thinking fails, because you have to toe-the-line and beat the drum to another's tune.

Godfree wrote:

chaz wyman wrote: I am free from religion because I do not define myself as an atheist.
You will never be free of god whilst you continue to define yourself in the terms you have defined for yourself.
Freethinking is not to adhere yourself by denial of a thing you think does not exist.
Belonging to a foundation, organisation, party, or church is the moment your free thinking fails, because you have to toe-the-line and beat the drum to another's tune.

there are many amongst us who can't keep time , and need a drummer ,
are you going to forever leave them at the mercy of religion ,

Yes, I see that you have this problem. But I have suggested a solution and you have failed to follow my lead.
You are a hopeless case.
Your problem is that you need to find a person you can follow, but like so many other people that rely on belief you cannot break out of your dependance on it.


or could one day something come along that could keep time ,
but was based on reality , good healthy thinking for the people ,
I keep perfect time , that s why I excel at table tennis , lead guitar , etc
I'm a drummer (literally) as it happens, but also a sculptor and historian. None of these things exhaust who I am, I am so much more.
But Atheism is meaningless. It only means that I will not have a any god to follow. That pretty much leaves me free to think for myself, and I suggest that rather than recommending that you "STAMP OUT RELIGION", you would do better to encourage others to also think for themselves, as this has proved (since the enlightenment) to have been the reason why religions have declined in the west, and how democracy has flourished. Atheism is on the increase, and has been throughout the 20thC. There is a greater yield on lack of adherence to religion; agnosticism; and downright secular thinking all the way to atheism among the educated. These people that you say cannot beat their own drum, are going to have what, in your brave new world?
sounds like anarchy Chaz , you don't want to join any group ,,???
Anarchy has a great and important history in the growth of Atheism, dogmatism does not.
I beat my own drum and think for myself. I would advice you to do the same and to relinquish your childish adherence to the need to define yourself in terms of God.
I think it's good for us to form groups in society ,
Yes, and anarchism was one of those groups in the 19thC that moved self determination, socialism, and democratisation forward into the 20thC.
You should read up on it.
Sorry old man but I do not want to join your group becasue it is based on a lie. You will need to try to peddle your views elsewhere.

discussion groups sports groups , political groups ,philosophy groups ,
Sounds like religion to me.
being part of the community you live in is what we all need to be doing ,
we don't want more Anders Breviks ,lone nutters wanting to kill ,
So you are saying he is a free thinker? Do you think that belonging to a group would have stopped him from his mayhem?
What sort of group do you think he would have belonged to ? Maybe the Nazi Party?

And who the fuck is "WE"?
I did not know you had the authority to speak for the whole world.
Would you have made Breivik join a group?

we should feel welcome to join clubs and express ourselves ,
in the right club of course , we don't launch into a religious rant ,
at the golf club ,,gosh no !!
but this is the right place to rip into religion ,
may there be many more ,,!!!

Godfree wrote:A drummer Chaz ,, now thats interesting ,
Micheal Waldron , Mahavishnu orchestra ,
do you know him , John Maclaughlins drummer ,
what sort of drummer are you ,what do you play , jazz Chaz ,??
I like fusion music , are you a free thinker as a muso ,
I write songs based on Atheism Chaz ,
so I can put my preaching to music , just like a church ,,!!!
have you ever written any songs Chaz ,
Fantasies are easy but the truth is hard to bare ,
or why would we delude ourselves that god is really here ,

chaz wyman wrote:

Godfree wrote:A drummer Chaz ,, now thats interesting ,
Micheal Waldron , Mahavishnu orchestra ,
do you know him , John Maclaughlins drummer ,
what sort of drummer are you ,what do you play , jazz Chaz ,??
I like fusion music , are you a free thinker as a muso ,
I write songs based on Atheism Chaz ,
so I can put my preaching to music , just like a church ,,!!!
have you ever written any songs Chaz ,
Fantasies are easy but the truth is hard to bare ,
or why would we delude ourselves that god is really here ,

I have two drum kits; A Roland V-Drum kit, and an antique Slingerland, I also have a range of hand drums such as Moroccan bongos, and an Egyptian tabla.
Mostly my efforts have raged from Blues to Rock to a little jazzy/funk. Yeah I've written stuff. I don't do guitar but I know enough to make a full contribution to the development of tunes and songs. For the last few years since my cancer and other band members having family responsibilities, my drumming has been put aside.