What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

So what's really going on?

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Satyr
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Satyr »

Hypocrite wrote:Correct! It includes the possibility for error - or the degree of possibility - if you prefer.
Nice....
Hypocrite wrote:Regarding your ambiguous phrasing "degrees of awareness": It is a meaningless combination of marks, an incoherent string of symbols.
Backtracking, little boy.
Hypocrite wrote:What you think about my person is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We'll call this Issue #1.
True, but I include it anyway, to give you a more complete picture. If you truly do not care, then you should not mind...imbecile.
I cannot lie to you, imbecile, nor will I hide my true evaluations of you.
Hypocrite wrote:Issue#1. Besides that, it is also a non sequitur(it does not follow from what I wrote)... In order for this to be true, I must think that all rates of change are equal, which I do not.
Oh but you do, moron, even if you are not aware of it. Equality, the uniforming notion of a #1, is your secular God.
Imbecile....you not even being able to understand why, despite the fact that reality is fluid, life is possible and civilization emerges, within the infinitesimally tiny timescales in relation to the continuity we are talking about, is why you are a simpleton.

Imbecile...this kind of "counter-argument" has been dealt by me a hundred times before, and that you, YOU, thought it constituted a significant counterpoint, makes you all the more deplorable in my eyes.

Imbecile...another metaphor to aid your tiny mind: An ant colony emerges, grows, flourishes and then diminishes in a few decades, let's say....in that time span is reality enclosed or is it a tiny fragment of reality within which phenomena emerge and then perish, seeking their own completion in the meantime?

Imbecile...in the timescales we are dealing with...well unless you are a simpleton like you....we are talking about billions upon billions of years, as man understands time...we are not dealing with the awareness of a gnat, or a chimp or a human retard like you.
Hypocrite wrote:Thus, this attempt at a reasonable objection is grounded upon the false presupposition that you are somehow privy to the mental activities in my mind. We'll call that Issue #2.
One more time, because your ego is not allowing you to read clearly: Imbecile, did I claim to be able to read your mind, tiny as it might be?
Imbecile...do you even realize that what you are implying just about erases all sciences dealing with biology, psychology or all those which depend on empirical, sensually gathered, data, extrapolating rules and types and categories...in effect the entirety of science?

One more time, with the same example: Imbecile....do I need to read a dog's mind to deduce its behavior or its motives using my observation of its activities?
Imbecile....when telling a girl you love her, words, and then treating her like shit, actions, which do you hold to be a superior indication of intent and honest attitude?

Imbecile...I know this scares the shit out of you, but can it be possible to know a dog more than it knows itself, given what self-consciousness is in relation to consciousness?
Hypocrite wrote:Issue#1. Issue#2. The rest of the above and my earlier objection are not mutually exclusive, nor incompatible. Neither, did I state that the fluidity renders all assessment useless, nor would I argue such a thing. You did. That is what I'm objecting to, and you're offering compelling reasons for my own position while contradicting your own claims. It is for this reason that the above constitutes a strawman fallacy, among other things. My objection did not deny the above. Rather it points out the unreasonability inherent in holding the belief that because reality is in a constant state of change, that all assessments of it are immediately obsolete. Unless we hold that an assessment can be both obsolete and useful, which is quite clearly a contradiction in terms, and to do so would render the term obsolete meaningless. Seeing how your premiss is grounded upon what constitutes being "meaningless", well...
Imbecile...what did I say about belief?

I can believe I can fly...I have this belief...for me this belief is TRUE....what is the deciding factor?
What, you stupid fuck, does my personal certainty and conviction have to do with reality and the world, other than that it posits a test to it deciding my fate within it?
Hypocrite wrote:#1. #2. #3. None of this changes the fact that the cup is on the table, and will remain so until it is acted on by an external force, even if those forces constitute strong and weak nuclear forces, and the resulting molecular change is virtually imperceptible to human observation.
Imbecile, we are not talking about your personal limitations and needs.
Imbecile, if you are a retard who thinks ghosts exist, then for you they exist...they are your belief...but this does not make them so.

Imbecile, your cup is changing...and in relation to you, YOU, you stupid fuck, it is static or it seems so.
Imbecile, is the cup static, even if you do not act upon it?
Imbecile, those forces are they not how man explains fluidity?

Name one static...one immutable thing.
Hypocrite wrote:Let's imagine... :roll: It is not the least bit compelling. More rhetoric.
I know...
Einstein, Albert wrote:Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Hypocrite wrote:Again #1. #2. #3. None of the above changes the fact that the cup is on the table. Nor does the fact that both are currently in a state of molecular decay change that fact. In fact, the cup being on the table grounds the rest.
In other words, nothing matters except how YOU, perceive it.
Excellent, douche-bag.
Therefore, there is no death, given that YOU, cannot or will not perceive it personally. The earth is NOT rotating...the galaxy is not rotating, the universe is not expanding.
It is all still, because you say so.

Imbecile define "here", as you allude to it in the sentence "the cup is on the table". It implies a static place. Define it...quantify it, you stupid fuck.
Not using human standards, like longitude and latitude....a priori style...no?
Hypocrite wrote:I do understand what you're saying, because I understand what it would take for your claim to be true. It is not as you say. Your position is incoherent, and self-contradictory. Interpretation is all we have, and the argument for that is impeccable. However, if we, by definition, exclude all interpretation from reality, then by default alone we invoke the false dichotomy of subjective/objective when talking about reality.
Ah, so now you agree, but you cannot make sense of how object/subject is possible unless you employ double-standards...agreeing sometimes and disagreeing at others, being of one mind in some contexts and in the opposite side in others. You are never wrong, in this way...your belief is infallible...it is TRUE.
Suddenly you've been saying the same things all along, but you can't explain the dualities unless you invoke your deity, the absolute.

This is where I play.

Remember, douche-bag, reality is absent of all absolutes, which the mind projects upon it out of necessity.
So a dichotomy is the mind/body division, the mind being the masculine the body being the feminine, using that metaphorical division.
The masculine is therefore seeking to create, like God, what is absent in reality. In fact it DOES create it in the form of ideals and ideas and abstractions, like here, now, self, one, there, particle, minute, etc.

So, imbecile, the masculine, true to its sexual role, is a rejection of what is, of authority, offering its own projections as the fulfillment of the feminine void. It is Creative and this is why a monist God is masculine. It connects back to Freud, from a more metaphysical direction.
The duo, the other, is the masculine spirit seeking to make of itself an alternative. In fact consciousness and its discrimination is a rejection, a negation, of the given...in this case the entropic decay, positing itself as the order which reality is missing.

The masculine is anti-nature, and this is why it produces philosophy and science as a way of understanding and then "correcting" the world. It is idealistic.
Consciousness is such a rejection or resistance...creating the necessary division of I and other.

But things get worse, douche-bag, as the feminine attitude is of total surrender. A giving in, tolerance, submission, to the entropic flow....leading to its own Ideal state: emptiness, void, nothingness.
So, for the male spirit the absolute is the some-thing...an ambiguous projection of an ideal state; for the female spirit it is a giving into what is...a conservative spirit which is often marketed as "progressive" - the opposite of what it is - whose absolute is the no-thing....both constituting a human duality between two polar opposite attitudes vying for the same end...an End.

The balance here, proposed in Hellenic asceticism and then in Nietzsche's overman, but also in eastern philosophy and its "way"...a balance between Yin/Yang....Dionysus/Apollo.....Feminine/Masculine with one having control....Imbalance occurs when the side meant to follow, to surrender, becomes dominant...resulting in decay and decadence....or when the masculine side takes too much control leading to totalitarianism, like God or fascism or your obsession with ONE.

In fact your obsession is a feminine attitude seeking an authority, a certainty, an ideal, a ONE. Whether you call it God or a number or a thing, amounts to a changing of the symbol and it means nothing else.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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The masculine is anti-nature, and this is why it produces philosophy and science as a way of understanding and then "correcting" the world. It is idealistic.

Consciousness is such a rejection or resistance...creating the necessary division of I and other.

~~~ satyr ~~~


This is an example of a gem that appears out of nowhere, out of abrasive rock.

It's a strange, strange dance but I like it.

He has others attack. He has others break the rock. Chiding them to work harder. Then he looks into their eyes, seeing their emotional fatigue and mental frustration, he shows us all something.


Something we are all looking for...

Something we did not see.


The awe. The amazement. The momentary giddiness, and then back to the work. Back to the hard labor.


The undeniable results.

The strangest dance...







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........................................What's stopping us from seeing the truth?




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creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

#1. #2. #3.

Please, by all means, continue on without me because it makes no difference anyway.
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Arising_uk
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Arising_uk »

Satyr wrote:...
The balance here, proposed in Hellenic asceticism and then in Nietzsche's overman, but also in eastern philosophy and its "way"...a balance between Yin/Yang....Dionysus/Apollo.....Feminine/Masculine with one having control....Imbalance occurs when the side meant to follow, to surrender, becomes dominant...resulting in decay and decadence....or when the masculine side takes too much control leading to totalitarianism, like God or fascism or your obsession with ONE. ...
Might apply to what you talk about but nonsense on stilts with respect to Yin/Yang and the Tao.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Why leave the conversation?

I really only restated what you your self, rather artistically, pointed out; Now that we're done waving our dicks around(I presume), care to do some philosophy? You have said some interesting things, many of which I actually agree with. In between ad homs, that is. By the way, in case ya can't tell, those do not impress me much.


I failed to point out that you creativesoul had an excellent poem that must have been created within a few minutes. That was awesome!

This has been a long drawn out thread, with frequent bumps in the road.

Overall, it's been an interesting ride.




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creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

@Bill,

I'm here to do philosophy.
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

...nor will I hide my true evaluations of you.
This is a useful example, one that could help shed some light on the question in the OP. There is a kind of queerness at work/play here, which could lend itself to unnecessary confusion if not carefully looked at. We need to analyze how the word "true" is being put to use here. In order for a statement or positive assertion to be true of the way things are, it must match up to the way things are. That is a given. Therefore, if the evaluation is of something/someone else, then it must match up to something/someone else in order for it to be a "true evaluation". It must accurately describe the case at hand. In the above example, "evaluations" do indeed match up to the way things are, however, there is something very subtle at work here in that they can both, match up to the way things are(by matching up to the thought/belief of the subject), and still not accurately describe that which it sets out to describe. Parsing out that subtlety will lend itself to a more complete understanding of my position, and perhaps put the distinction between subjective/objective to better(meaningful) use.

Granting that the subject performing the evaluation is being honest, an evaluation always corresponds to/with the thought/belief of the subject performing the evaluation. That is also a given. Thus, when one says "my true evaluations of X", if that is to mean something like "what I really do think about X", then the term true is completely unnecessary. It is redundant. For, if one is honest, then "my evaluations of X" suffices. Now, here comes the queer part at work/play. If the term "true" is being used to describe the subject's own thought/belief("evaluations" in this case), then we must ask why it being employed. The term "true" can only mark out a distinction between claims that are believed and those that are not. True ones being those that are/were believed and false ones being those that are/were not believed. So why draw this distinction? If a subject says "this is my true thought" they are not saying anything meaningful, nor adding anything useful unless there have been lies being told. For if there were not lies being told, then all of their thought/belief would be 'true' in this queer sort of way, and there would be no need to arbitrarily employ the use of the term "true". We can confidently say that because we can know that "I believe X" means "I believe X is true"... necessarily so. Truth is central to thought/belief. It makes no sense whatsoever to say "I believe X, but X is false". It is humanly impossible to knowingly believe a falsehood. This is supported by common sense. As soon as we know(or think that we know) that X is not the case, we can no longer believe X. So, when a subject who is opposing truth suddenly says - "my true evaluations of X" - we should immediately ask what the term "true" is referring to and/or why it is being employed.

Now, offering copious amounts of charity, it could be the case that the subject is claiming the truth of the evaluation. I mean, the subject could be saying that it is the evaluation that is true, rather than saying that it is true that they really do believe this or that. However, if the former is the case and the subject in question has already used the notion that the universe is "fluid" in order to denounce truth correspondence, then the subject has arrived at a clear self-contradiction in thought. For one cannot hold such a position and then continue on to make an objective truth claim(a claim about that which obtains regardless of one's thought/belief). It makes no difference, therefore, to know whether or not the term "true" is referencing the subject's own thought/belief, which brings honesty into question and is true of the subject, or if it is claiming the truth of the evaluation itself, and is therefore true of the object in thought.

--

In a nutshell...
...nor will I hide my true evaluations of you.
This could mean "...nor will I hide my evaluations(that I really do believe) about you..." or "...nor will I hide my evaluations of you, which are true of you, from you". The former is true of the subject's thought/belief. The latter is a claim regarding the accuracy of the former, and is therefore about that which is being evaluated.

So, witchizit? (this is a rhetorical question)

:mrgreen:
creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

I failed to point out that you creativesoul had an excellent poem that must have been created within a few minutes. That was awesome!
Thank you, it wasn't much... really. I can take no credit for that of which I am not responsible... the capability, I mean.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Do you mean that you can create poems at any time?



If you can, that is a gift.


Do you rap?


Are you artistic in other ways?






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creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

At any time? Prolly, but the quality corresponds to the level of emotional inspiration. Motivation is key to action.

No. I'm not fitty cent.
creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

Gifts are given. From whom/what shall I say this "gift" has been given to me?
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John
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by John »

creativesoul wrote:Gifts are given. From whom/what shall I say this "gift" has been given to me?
Random chance and the chemical soup?
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Arising_uk
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by Arising_uk »

Bill,
Whilst I understand that many are of a visual nature, is it always necessary to post a picture when your words make it clear what you are saying?
creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

Could be... I don't know. Could also be that it is not a "gift", but more like a curse. Could be that it is a result of my own biological tendencies being influenced by my reading large amounts of poetry at a young age. Could be...

All kinds of things...

No?
creativesoul
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?

Post by creativesoul »

Pictures add clarity where it lacks...

:wink:

Evidently, the "bumpy road" involved more than just a trying dialogue in Bill's mind.
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