Philosophy Now Forum

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:21 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:17 pm
There are 2 billion Muslims, whether you like it or not.

Islam's an ideology, not a people. Ideologies can change, and the people will still live. So you're being irrelevant.

Muslims need to look at what their religion is doing, and get a moral conscience. Because clearly, something is very badly missing from Islam's moral conscience. And while they're becoming self-aware, they should stop lecturing anybody else about "family." They have no expertise to offer.

Keep screaming in the wind while nobody can hear you.

I'm not screaming. I'm just pointing out that your little lecture about how Islam can lead us into better family values is belied by the actions of Muslims themselves.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:32 pm I'm not screaming. I'm just pointing out that your little lecture about how Islam can lead us into better family values is belied by the actions of Muslims themselves.

Islam works for people who believe in it. It obviously does not work for you. So, try something else instead.

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:32 pm I'm not screaming. I'm just pointing out that your little lecture about how Islam can lead us into better family values is belied by the actions of Muslims themselves.

Islam works for people who believe in it.

It does not. It makes them poor, angry, miserable, vicious and defeated. We can see that on every side today. And it makes their women and children...dead.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:38 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:32 pm I'm not screaming. I'm just pointing out that your little lecture about how Islam can lead us into better family values is belied by the actions of Muslims themselves.

Islam works for people who believe in it.

It does not.

It does. Nobody is listening to you. You just keep screaming in the wind.

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:50 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:38 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:34 pm
Islam works for people who believe in it.

It does not.

It does. Nobody is listening to you.

Wait. You'll find out. That's all I can say, since you're not listening.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:52 pm Wait. You'll find out. That's all I can say, since you're not listening.

I am doing perfectly fine. Besides that, you are right about the fact that I am not listening. Seriously, ask yourself the question: Why would anybody listen to you?

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:52 pm Wait. You'll find out. That's all I can say, since you're not listening.

I am doing perfectly fine.

For now.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:04 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:52 pm Wait. You'll find out. That's all I can say, since you're not listening.

I am doing perfectly fine.

For now.

It is the unbelievers who will burn in hell and not us. So, you've got it wrong again.

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:04 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 4:56 pm
I am doing perfectly fine.

For now.

It is the unbelievers who will burn in hell and not us.

It's about their lack of "heavenly" moral values that we're talking. Before Islam lectures anybody, it should prove it's at least as good, or better than the people they're lecturing.

The West has serious problems in its family values; but the answer is clearly not available from Islam.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:16 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:04 pm
For now.

It is the unbelievers who will burn in hell and not us.

It's about their lack of "heavenly" moral values that we're talking. Before Islam lectures anybody, it should prove it's at least as good, or better than the people they're lecturing.

The West has serious problems in its family values; but the answer is clearly not available from Islam.

These choices are made individually. I don't care what choice other people make. That is not my problem. That is their problem.

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:16 pm

godelian wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 5:07 pm
It is the unbelievers who will burn in hell and not us.

It's about their lack of "heavenly" moral values that we're talking. Before Islam lectures anybody, it should prove it's at least as good, or better than the people they're lecturing.

The West has serious problems in its family values; but the answer is clearly not available from Islam.

These choices are made individually. I don't care what choice other people make. That is not my problem. That is their problem.

And yet, you started trying to tell people about everything you see as wrong in the West about "the nuclear family," and held up Islam as something somehow better. That's utterly inexplicable, given you claim that you simply "don't care" what choices other people make.

But okay.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 7:28 pm And yet, you started trying to tell people about everything you see as wrong in the West about "the nuclear family,"

Yes, that is what the OP is about. Democracy destroys the nuclear family.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 7:28 pm and held up Islam as something somehow better.

That is not what the OP is about. It does not mention Islam at all. It is you who keep mentioning Islam.

Islam only works if you believe in it. You clearly do not believe in it. So, it could not possibly work for you. As I have asked you already, why don't you choose something else instead?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 7:28 pm That's utterly inexplicable, given you claim that you simply "don't care" what choices other people make.

I don't care what choices people make but I do care what choices the government tries to enforce.

I want to be left alone.

The governments in SE Asia leave me alone. That is why I love it here. The governments in the West would not leave me alone. That is why I no longer want to live there.

I find democracy to be an utmost detestable form of government that refuses to leave people alone. A democracy wants to stick its nose in people's private family lives and meddle with none of their business. I hate their utmost detestable divorce courts. That is the number one reason why I hate democracy.

Another reprehensible practice of democracy is to promise to the voters that someone else will pay their doctor's bills. In my experience, there is no more despicable form of government than democracy. I hate it with a passion. I simply do not want to live in a democratic country. That is why I simply don't.

So, I don't care what choices people make but I don't want them to make their usually imbecile choices on my behalf. I still want to make my own choices too.

I don't care about ballots, because I vote with my feet. I go where I am treated best, and that better place never turns out to be a democracy. It is always a place where the government stays out of people's private family lives and does not promise to pay the doctor's bills with someone else's money.

godelian wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 1:27 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 7:28 pm And yet, you started trying to tell people about everything you see as wrong in the West about "the nuclear family,"

Yes, that is what the OP is about. Democracy destroys the nuclear family.

Democracy has nothing whatsoever to do with the family. But if one has to choose between the secularism of the West or Islamism, everybody is choosing the West. As they used to say in the days of the Cuban boatlift, "All the boats go one way."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 22, 2025 7:28 pm and held up Islam as something somehow better.

That is not what the OP is about.

In a way, it is: because if you're going to criticize "democracy," you can't do so without at least tacitly opting for some different thing. And you've made it clear that for you, that's Islam. All I've done is point out that in light of what Islam routinely does, that's simply not plausible: as bad as the West is, Islam's no better, and in some ways, considerably worse. At least under democracy one has basic personal freedoms; under Sharia, one doesn't even get those.

Islam only works if you believe in it.

It doesn't even work for the people who believe in it. That's why they're all fleeing to the West. But nobody wants to flee to Syria, or Iran, or the Territories, or any of the other places Islam has turned into hellholes of human rights abuses. So all the boats are still going one way.

I want to be left alone.

Then leave other people alone. And don't try to tell them what to do.

I hate their utmost detestable divorce courts. That is the number one reason why I hate democracy.

Yes, Western divorce courts are bad. No question. But Sharia is even worse, but for women and children rather than the men. I don't think you can get a win there.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:16 am Democracy has nothing whatsoever to do with the family.

Only democracies have rolled out divorce-rape laws. No other system of government would ever do that.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:16 am But if one has to choose between the secularism of the West or Islamism, everybody is choosing the West. As they used to say in the days of the Cuban boatlift, "All the boats go one way."

Wrong.

When the boats of poor people go one way, the yachts of wealthy people go in exactly the opposite way.

When Trump says that he wants to bring back the factories to the USA, he is actually saying that he wants the yachts to sail back to the USA. They obviously won't.

If the Ricardian trade terms between rich and poor are good for the one side, they are necessarily bad for the other side. So, if you attract poor people, you automatically repel wealthy people.

That explains why poor Salvadorian immigrants are illegally trying to sneak across the border of the United States while the uber-wealthy Max Keiser is making podcasts from El Salvador in which he spits on the USA and glorifies El Salvador.

If you are convinced that the West is more attractive, it just gives away that you are not wealthy. You think like the lower income classes in the West, while you cannot possibly understand how wealthy people think.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:16 am At least under democracy one has basic personal freedoms; under Sharia, one doesn't even get those.

That is propaganda.

Under sharia, I get to keep my income and my assets. The IRS cannot get it nor any ex-wife. Freedoms have to be actually relevant to be valuable. I am not interested in voting. I just don't want to pay for the ones who do.

I live in SE Asia. So, yes, every unemployed and destitute local beggar would love to move to the West and lavishly cash in on western welfare checks. The reason why it is a paradise for me over here, is because nobody asks me to fund such welfare checks over here with my income and assets. I don't want to pay for other people's welfare checks. Over here, I don't have to. So, the boats clearly go in both directions. The West is a paradise for unemployed and destitute beggars. It is not a paradise for anyone else.

The economic success of the West depends on people in yachts who cannot stand the West and who are increasingly moving elsewhere with their factories. How much longer do you think that the economic success of the West is going to last?

godelian wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:47 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:16 am Democracy has nothing whatsoever to do with the family.

Only democracies have rolled out divorce-rape laws.

So you're defending rape? Or is it that you just think that marriage excuse anything?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:16 am But if one has to choose between the secularism of the West or Islamism, everybody is choosing the West. As they used to say in the days of the Cuban boatlift, "All the boats go one way."

Wrong.

True. Muslims flee Muslim countries.

If you are convinced that the West is more attractive...

Well, the Muslim migrants certainly are. They're "voting with their feet" by going there.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:16 am At least under democracy one has basic personal freedoms; under Sharia, one doesn't even get those.

That is propaganda.

Buddy, I've lived in heavily Muslim countries. Don't tell me lies. You can't fool me.