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Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:36 am
by bahman
Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:04 am
Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:52 pm
When I choose to commit a crime, or not commit a crime I make a decision. The decision is based on a nexus of causalities which include all antecedent conditions including my motivation, volition, physical and mental needs, education, socialization, experience
ad infinitem. It might be difficult for another to predict my choice. But that choice can only make sense if it is the sum of those causalities, the things that make me who I am. There are laws that might deter me, or encourage me. but it is not free in an absolute sense that I am free of the deterministic condition of the universe, the laws and cause and effect which cause my decision to be made of necessity to the conditions at that moment. It is an inescapable truth that I am determined to act thus, and in the full knowledge of the consequences and the responsibility which is wholly mine, I make the choice. Free will is illusory, such choices are determined or would be meaningless. I am that agent of determinism compatible with causality and the exercise of my will.
But apparently, God gives us free will. And about that, we have no choice, because he insists upon it. Unless you are a Calvinist, then you don't.
Does anyone care to refute this?
How do you define free will? You cannot refute something that you didn't provide a definition for it!
Free will is the ability of an agent to act by endogenous forces that determine that action free from the compulsion of other people.
Are you free to act when a thief puts a gun on your head and asks you to open your safe?
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:48 am
by Age
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:36 am
Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:04 am
How do you define free will? You cannot refute something that you didn't provide a definition for it!
Free will is the ability of an agent to act by endogenous forces that determine that action free from the compulsion of other people.
Are you free to act when a thief puts a gun on your head and asks you to open your safe?
Yes, you are always ABLE TO make choices, which is what the words 'free will' are referring to, EXACTLY.
That is; if and when one is LOOKING and SEEING FROM the GUTOE perspective.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:06 am
by henry quirk
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:36 amAre you free to act when a thief puts a gun on your head and asks you to open your safe?
Yes. You can choose to comply or refuse, to do as you're told or to to fight back. What you don't have is a guarantee things will work out in your favor. Of course, the thief has no guarantee things will work out in his favor either.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:40 am
by Sculptor
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:36 am
Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:14 am
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 11:04 am
How do you define free will? You cannot refute something that you didn't provide a definition for it!
Free will is the ability of an agent to act by endogenous forces that determine that action free from the compulsion of other people.
Are you free to act when a thief puts a gun on your head and asks you to open your safe?
Duh no. Obviously
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:43 am
by Sculptor
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:06 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:36 amAre you free to act when a thief puts a gun on your head and asks you to open your safe?
Yes. You can choose to comply or refuse,
Based on your assessment of the outcomes, and that is determined by who you are and your situation. Consdierations such as how smart are you , and how much do you love the money.
If the exact same situation were repeated then you would react in the same way. Determinism means acting meaingfully.
to do as you're told or to to fight back. What you don't have is a guarantee things will work out in your favor. Of course, the thief has no guarantee things will work out in his favor either.
The point being - if you were free you would not open the safe.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:55 am
by Skepdick
Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:43 am
If the exact same situation were repeated then you would react in the same way.
"The exact same situation repeated" is an non-sensical oxymoron.
If the exact same situation were to be repeated I would have memories of the last occurrence.
Unlike the first time it ever happened - when I didn't have memories of any prior occurrences.
Have you never played a computer game in your life? You die against the final boss 100 times before you figure out all his tricks, and eventually - you win. That's how learning through failure works.
Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:43 am
The point being - if you were free you would not open the safe.
Maybe the 1st time. And you end up in hospital - almost dead.
And the 2nd time. And you end up i nhospital - almost dead.
And the 50th time. And you end up in hospital - almost dead.
Eventually you are going to learn to open the fucking safe. Or your luck will run out and then you die.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:57 am
by henry quirk
Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:43 amIf the exact same situation were repeated then you would react in the same way.
All things bein' equal: why would
I choose to do differently?
Bein' a libertarian free will mean
I choose. It means I am
informed (instead of
directed or
determined) by history and circumstance. My choice is meaningful exactly becuz it's
my choice.
Necessitarianism is machine works, devoid of meaning. It's blind cause and effect.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:59 am
by Iwannaplato
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:06 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:36 amAre you free to act when a thief puts a gun on your head and asks you to open your safe?
Yes. You can choose to comply or refuse, to do as you're told or to to fight back. What you don't have is a guarantee things will work out in your favor. Of course, the thief has no guarantee things will work out in his favor either.
Agreed, though both you and Bahman are talking about freedom and not free will. This conflation runs through this thread and Wizard has been the primary source.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:59 am
by Skepdick
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:57 am
All things bein' equal: why would
I choose to do differently?
Because of your prior memories about the way the situation unfolfed given your choice.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Apparently.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:03 pm
by henry quirk
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:59 amyou and Bahman are talking about freedom and not free will.
I disagree. Free will (bein' one) is synonymous with with bein' a free man.
The ontology and the practical are part & parcel.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:05 pm
by Skepdick
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:03 pm
I disagree. Free will (bein' one) is synonymous with with bein' a free man.
No, it isn't.
Freedom from and freedom to are both kinds of freedoms. We pursue both.
Freedom to do as I please is freedom.
Freedom from being kicked in the balls by a drunk free will is also a form of freedom - it's freedom from injury/harm.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:03 pm
The ontology and the practical are part & parcel.
Which ontology? The present or the future?
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:08 pm
by henry quirk
Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:59 am
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:57 am
All things bein' equal: why would
I choose to do differently?
Because of your prior memories about the way the situation unfolfed given your choice.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Apparently.
I assumed the replay was just that: a replay wherein it was all shiny & new again for the thief and me. I didn't take it that I remembered the first play thru.
Knowing the replay is a replay changes things considerably. If I
know the thief is gonna be there I may
not. Or I may meet him with my shotgun, or...
New information broadens my choices (it doesn't, of course, dictate them).
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:10 pm
by henry quirk
Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:05 pmNo, it isn't.
For me it is.
Not gonna dicker with you...again.
Get bent.
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:10 pm
by Skepdick
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:08 pm
I assumed the replay was just that: a replay wherein it was all shiny & new again for the thief and me. I didn't take it that I remembered the first play thru.
So... that's called determinism. Or if we are to use your label - it's called necessitarianism.
Same situation. Same events. Same inputs to all variables/equations -> same result every time.
Non-determinism is Same situation. Same events. Same inputs to all variables/equations -> different result every time.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:08 pm
Knowing the replay is a replay changes things considerably. If I
know the thief is gonna be there I may
not. Or I may meet him with my shotgun, or...
New information broadens my choices (it doesn't, of course, dictate them).
Great, it sounds like you've switched to being a determinist now
We can positively say that you are one confused "free will"...
Re: Free will is wholly deterministic
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:14 pm
by Skepdick
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:10 pm
Not gonna dicker with you...again.
Before you dicker with me again you should stop dickering with yourself....
Are you a determinist or not? Perhaps it depends on the time of day?
No. You straighten yourself out.
