Philosophy Now Forum

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:24 pm
However, that would be an instance of "strong emergence," where there would be no logical accounting for how this wholly other phenomenon (a living, conscious, self-aware entity) emerged from an underlying substrate that is completely devoid of life and consciousness.

Isn't everything in its most default mode made up of an underlying substrate devoid of life and consciousness? We could begin with atoms in that respect.

We ourselves are a perfect example of having emerged from conditions completely incognizant of what life, being life, must manifest. Consider the fact...and fact it is, not theory or opinion, that each of your cells among the thirty trillion you possess know nothing of your existence and in consequence couldn't care whether you live or die or even if you're alive. Each cell performs its miniscule, individual function without any awareness of itself and nothing of you as a whole. How then do we come to be what we are except through a strong emergent field integrating a highly advanced structure of non-aware entities? Within that lies the deep mysteries of consciousness and the extent to which it may manifest.

The point being, under this paradigm anything inorganic has the potential to become conscious revealing its own reality perspectives however alien to ours. In regard to life, Strong Emergence seems indeed a fundamental function in the universe, (this one anyway) that has the power to leverage complexity unaware of itself, into a state of awareness.

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:10 pmIsn't everything in its most default mode made up of an underlying substrate devoid of life and consciousness? We could begin with atoms in that respect.

Mushrooms still illegal in your state? A deprived childhood?

Seeds, get him up to speed here ….

(Note: he seems to have a foundation in multiverse theory. The road will be easier to hoe …)

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:14 pm
All I can say is this "transformational state" seems a lot like a contagious mental disorder to me.

We've always been subject to transformational states as provided in history. Some are barely noticeable during one's tenure on earth while others are vastly accelerated, as if overdue, often exploding in revolutions.

If such inevitable broad-based shifts sound like a "contagious mental disorder" to you, then so be it!

I'm not interested in changing anyone's views.

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:10 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:24 pm
However, that would be an instance of "strong emergence," where there would be no logical accounting for how this wholly other phenomenon (a living, conscious, self-aware entity) emerged from an underlying substrate that is completely devoid of life and consciousness.

Isn't everything in its most default mode made up of an underlying substrate devoid of life and consciousness? We could begin with atoms in that respect.

Sure, let's begin with atoms.

How about those atoms that formed the fabric of that vivid dream you may have had last night?

Can you not see how those particular atoms might be thoroughly saturated with your own life essence, and literally would not exist if you (your living mind) did not exist?
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:53 pm How about those atoms that formed the fabric of that vivid dream you may have had last night?

Why would you think that atoms formed the fabric of one's vivid dreams instead of the process which created them which begins with atoms existing which, btw, don't get saturated with anyone's personality. Atoms are atoms or do you have a different version?

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:53 pmCan you not see how those particular atoms might be thoroughly saturated with your own life essence, and literally would not exist if you (your living mind) did not exist?

I really can't believe this! How many more are going fucking bonkers on this site?

An iron atom is an iron atom whether existing initially in a supernova explosion or as a main constituent in forming hemoglobin. It's the same fucking atom.

It doesn't require MY existence to exist but sure as hell, I require it!

I've got a dress shirt that's saturated with Life Essence but that's a brand of cologne, not a quasi-atomic energy field that generates from my very being.

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:35 am I really can't believe this! How many more are going fucking bonkers on this site?

For Heaven’s sake Dubious!

We.are.trying.to.help.you!

Start with the cologne as Brother Promethean suggests. Then read the aphorisms of Khalil Gibran. But go slowly!

A Saint’s breakfast will help (DM me).

Do you have access to adolescent virgins? Gandhi used them to advantage.

This is paradigm shift brother. This is BIG. Things have changed since the 70s and 80s.

Major, MAJOR revisions!

And you predicted them!

"A Saint’s breakfast will help (DM me)."

Don't do it, Dub. He's gonna make u listen to St. Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:57 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:35 am I really can't believe this! How many more are going fucking bonkers on this site?

For Heaven’s sake Dubious!

We.are.trying.to.help.you!

Start with the cologne as Brother Promethean suggests. Then read the aphorisms of Khalil Gibran. But go slowly!

A Saint’s breakfast will help (DM me).

Do you have access to adolescent virgins? Gandhi used them to advantage.

This is paradigm shift brother. This is BIG. Things have changed since the 70s and 80s.

Tell me in what manner a low-life derelict such as thou can be of any help. That would be tantamount to expecting an idiot to raise himself to the next improvement level that being the moron stage. Unfortunately it can't be done without outside help which I realize you've been studiously yearning for but not yet achieved.

Why not be at peace and simply accept the limitations god has endowed you with, brother!

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 1:05 am "A Saint’s breakfast will help (DM me)."

Don't do it, Dub. He's gonna make u listen to St. Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast.

None of that brain-blistering noisy shit for me.

This is what true musical sounding thought waves sound like in my more contemplative moods...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVU_0vL-NbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neZ4xhjkrA4

When the Soul Slept in Beams of Light
God Appears & God is Light

In all seriousness (sic) I’d say that the manner in which one views that mystic atom depends totally on one’s fundamental predicates.

If what we refer to when thinking of existence (matter, all this stuff) is really only to energy (?or whatever it is¿) then it is not hard to understand why the ancients — Beefheart in any case if not Zappa — would have proposed that everything is and can only be ‘living stuff’ of an incomprehensible nature. It must, ultimately, be alive.

It depends on how it is seen.

If all things proceed from *the mind of god* (which is what I believe when the sun is shining)(I admit to some dreary cynicism when the grey clouds oppress) then there is no alternative but

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower

Is that seeing right or is it seeing wrong?

What I notice — I’ve always noticed it about Dubious — is that he enforces a particular view through all his pronouncements. And his forced impositions come forth in some snitty meanness. Why?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:06 am

When the Soul Slept in Beams of Light
God Appears & God is Light

In all seriousness (sic) I’d say that the manner in which one views that mystic atom depends totally on one’s fundamental predicates.

If what we refer to when thinking of existence (matter, all this stuff) is really only to energy (?or whatever it is¿) then it is not hard to understand why the ancients — Beefheart in any case if not Zappa — would have proposed that everything is and can only be ‘living stuff’ of an incomprehensible nature. It must, ultimately, be alive.

It depends on how it is seen.

If all things proceed from *the mind of god* (which is what I believe when the sun is shining)(I admit to some dreary cynicism when the grey clouds oppress) then there is no alternative but

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower

Is that seeing right or is it seeing wrong?

What I notice — I’ve always noticed it about Dubious — is that he enforces a particular view through all his pronouncements. And his forced impositions come forth in some snitty meanness. Why?

...as a reaction to yours; I wasn't the one who started with the name-calling and your stupid thoroughly insipid sarcasms which have absolutely no connection to what was said or implied. Also, I made it clear many times anyone is free to think what they like. I don't express mine with any more vehemence than you express yours or anyone else.

What am I supposed to do? Begin every sentence with "it is my view"; "it is my opinion", etc.!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:06 amIn all seriousness (sic) I’d say that the manner in which one views that mystic atom depends totally on one’s fundamental predicates.

The "mystic atom" as you call it depends on not anyone's fundamental predicates. The nature of the atom is denoted within the precincts of science which has no problem revising its views upon further information. Knowing the "mind of god" is in a perennial state of upgrade.

If the atom depended on some idiot's "fundamental predicates" we'd either have a runt universe or no universe at all.

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:35 am

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:53 pm Can you not see how those particular atoms might be thoroughly saturated with your own life essence, and literally would not exist if you (your living mind) did not exist?

I really can't believe this! How many more are going fucking bonkers on this site?

I'm starting to worry about you, Dubious. Setting aside the fact that you seem to be soiling your Depends over this issue, have you developed a case of amnesia when it comes to all of the previous "bonkers" conversations we've had in the past? As if you have just now discovered how crazy I am?

Clearly, your inane and contentious banter with AJ has got you in a mood for insulting people.

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:35 am An iron atom is an iron atom whether existing initially in a supernova explosion or as a main constituent in forming hemoglobin. It's the same fucking atom.

It doesn't require MY existence to exist but sure as hell, I require it!

First of all, I never suggested that any of the atoms that form the outer phenomenal features of the universe require your existence.

No, I was speaking purely of the atoms that form the three-dimensional features of your own personal thoughts, memories, and dreams.

Furthermore, if you think that the atoms forming your dreams are simply borrowed from the general array of atoms that make up the entangled matter of the universe,...

...then let's see you - or anyone else - reach into the inner dimension of your mind while you are dreaming of, say, a tropical island paradise as is depicted in one of my over-used illustrations...



...and then measure one of the palm frond atoms for its angular momentum.

Good luck with that.

And lastly, how many times do I have to point out to hardcore materialists such as yourself that if according to materialism there is literally nothing else other than physical matter,...

...then that means that the stuff that forms our dreams is simply an inward extension of the same stuff that forms the stars and planets.

In which case, if humans (within the inner context of our own minds) can willfully grasp the same fundamental substance that forms the stars and planets and transform it into anything we wish (just by “thinking It” into existence),...

...then why is it so difficult for you to at least entertain the possibility that a higher level of mind and consciousness may possess the same sort of ownership and control over the greater reality of the universe?
_______

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:34 am The "mystic atom" as you call it depends on not anyone's fundamental predicates. The nature of the atom is denoted within the precincts of science which has no problem revising its views upon further information. Knowing the "mind of god" is in a perennial state of upgrade.

If the atom depended on some idiot's "fundamental predicates" we'd either have a runt universe or no universe at all.

I did not say ‘it depends’. Science explains the atom, that is true. But it does not, and I don’t think it can, explain its existence nor what it is. Nor what anything is nor what we are.

I don’t think I’d disagree: “Knowing the "mind of god" is in a perennial state of upgrade.”

You get wiser by the post!

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:27 am
Clearly, your inane and contentious banter with AJ has got you in a mood for insulting people.

Was it only me that was inane and contentious?

Honestly, I'm no-longer in the least interested in your inane metaphysical claptrap which tells one nothing; explains nothing and decides nothing except what is imagined. But I do admire your ability to expand your pico-second allowance in time into some kind of forward moving revelation of continuance.

Good luck with that!