Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:49 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:56 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:31 pm
War is the means by which the rich fight their battles using the poor. No- there are no justifications for war.

Wealth is not the route to happiness.

If British airmen had not fought the Battle of Britain we would have been overrun by Nazis.

IF german pilots had not been bombing the UK there would be no need for British airmen
And... BTW
We are overrun by Nazis.
No war required

If Ukrainians had surrendered to Putin they would have lost their freedom to a bad man and his bad regime.

Oh Bad man.
If the US and the EU had not been conspiring to control Ukraine and other neighbours of Russia there may have been no war.
It always takes two to tango.

If you continue along that way you will be citing the wrongs Cromwell did to Ireland.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:32 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:49 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:56 pm
If British airmen had not fought the Battle of Britain we would have been overrun by Nazis.

IF german pilots had not been bombing the UK there would be no need for British airmen
And... BTW
We are overrun by Nazis.
No war required

If Ukrainians had surrendered to Putin they would have lost their freedom to a bad man and his bad regime.

Oh Bad man.
If the US and the EU had not been conspiring to control Ukraine and other neighbours of Russia there may have been no war.
It always takes two to tango.

If you continue along that way you will be citing the wrongs Cromwell did to Ireland.

Only if one was talking about the wrongs the Irish did at around the same time. Or, some of the Irish. Your example floats in time alone, presumably meant to mean something a long time ago. Whether one agrees with Sculptor's implicit argument or not, he is mentioning causes close in time to the effects.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:24 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:32 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:49 pm
IF german pilots had not been bombing the UK there would be no need for British airmen
And... BTW
We are overrun by Nazis.
No war required


Oh Bad man.
If the US and the EU had not been conspiring to control Ukraine and other neighbours of Russia there may have been no war.
It always takes two to tango.

If you continue along that way you will be citing the wrongs Cromwell did to Ireland.

Only if one was talking about the wrongs the Irish did at around the same time. Or, some of the Irish. Your example floats in time alone, presumably meant to mean something a long time ago. Whether one agrees with Sculptor's implicit argument or not, he is mentioning causes close in time to the effects.

Let Sculptor keep going if it makes him happy. Apparently, he needs to include himself among the "Nazis" who are "overrunning" everyone--if defending their motives in WWII counts.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:12 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:24 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:32 pm
If you continue along that way you will be citing the wrongs Cromwell did to Ireland.

Only if one was talking about the wrongs the Irish did at around the same time. Or, some of the Irish. Your example floats in time alone, presumably meant to mean something a long time ago. Whether one agrees with Sculptor's implicit argument or not, he is mentioning causes close in time to the effects.

Let Sculptor keep going if it makes him happy. Apparently, he needs to include himself among the "Nazis" who are "overrunning" everyone--if defending their motives in WWII counts.

By "the wrongs Cromwell did to Ireland" I mean we must limit time lapse to the very recent past as it mightily concerns us. The Nazis and the European fascists constituted at the time in question an urgent emergency and that time was no occasion for psychoanalysing dictators or their cultures.
Outrageous fortune it may all be but that's insufficient reason for inaction.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:12 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:24 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:32 pm
If you continue along that way you will be citing the wrongs Cromwell did to Ireland.

Only if one was talking about the wrongs the Irish did at around the same time. Or, some of the Irish. Your example floats in time alone, presumably meant to mean something a long time ago. Whether one agrees with Sculptor's implicit argument or not, he is mentioning causes close in time to the effects.

Let Sculptor keep going if it makes him happy. Apparently, he needs to include himself among the "Nazis" who are "overrunning" everyone--if defending their motives in WWII counts.

It was said that there is such a thing as a just war. I beg to differ.

Every Nazi, and the German state as a whole regarded their war as just, and could cite a long list of calumnies and insults against their nation going back 40 years bu which they thought that they had the right to attack Poland.

And all those deaths - millions of lives snuffed out early across the globe did not also stuff out Nazism, which is rising in the US, UK and many places in the EU.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:07 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:12 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:24 am Only if one was talking about the wrongs the Irish did at around the same time. Or, some of the Irish. Your example floats in time alone, presumably meant to mean something a long time ago. Whether one agrees with Sculptor's implicit argument or not, he is mentioning causes close in time to the effects.

Let Sculptor keep going if it makes him happy. Apparently, he needs to include himself among the "Nazis" who are "overrunning" everyone--if defending their motives in WWII counts.

It was said that there is such a thing as a just war. I beg to differ.

Every Nazi, and the German state as a whole regarded their war as just, and could cite a long list of calumnies and insults against their nation going back 40 years bu which they thought that they had the right to attack Poland.

And all those deaths - millions of lives snuffed out early across the globe did not also stuff out Nazism, which is rising in the US, UK and many places in the EU.

Hitler's, Mussolini's, Franco's, and Putin's reasons for holding and acting upon their ideologies were necessary but insufficient to justify their aggression.

Appeasing the fascists was tried and failed, the ultimatum was ignored, Poland was invaded, therefore the war was a just war qua "the war".

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:15 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:07 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:12 am

Let Sculptor keep going if it makes him happy. Apparently, he needs to include himself among the "Nazis" who are "overrunning" everyone--if defending their motives in WWII counts.

It was said that there is such a thing as a just war. I beg to differ.

Every Nazi, and the German state as a whole regarded their war as just, and could cite a long list of calumnies and insults against their nation going back 40 years bu which they thought that they had the right to attack Poland.

And all those deaths - millions of lives snuffed out early across the globe did not also stuff out Nazism, which is rising in the US, UK and many places in the EU.

Hitler's, Mussolini's, Franco's, and Putin's reasons for holding and acting upon their ideologies were necessary but insufficient to justify their aggression.

Appeasing the fascists was tried and failed, the ultimatum was ignored, Poland was invaded, therefore the war was a just war qua "the war".

A war that could have been avoided by more co-operation and less greed.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:50 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:15 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:07 pm

It was said that there is such a thing as a just war. I beg to differ.

Every Nazi, and the German state as a whole regarded their war as just, and could cite a long list of calumnies and insults against their nation going back 40 years bu which they thought that they had the right to attack Poland.

And all those deaths - millions of lives snuffed out early across the globe did not also stuff out Nazism, which is rising in the US, UK and many places in the EU.

Hitler's, Mussolini's, Franco's, and Putin's reasons for holding and acting upon their ideologies were necessary but insufficient to justify their aggression.

Appeasing the fascists was tried and failed, the ultimatum was ignored, Poland was invaded, therefore the war was a just war qua "the war".

A war that could have been avoided by more co-operation and less greed.

True, but the fascists wouldn't cooperate, almost by definition. So whose fault is that? Everyones? Perhaps. However, Hitler was trying to revitalize a defeated Germany back into the great power it once was. Mussolini wanted to bring back the greatness of Roman Italy. And their misguided populations followed them both off a cliff. Kind of like MAGA republicans. There were elements in the US and UK who were sympathetic to Hitler and Mussolini as well. The poet Ezra Pound went one further and became a source of propaganda for fascist Italy. Pretty big mistake it turned out to be.

Were the allies angels? By no means. But they were in the right to fight against the fascists. They had no choice. It was either that or allowing evil to win. Out of the ashes of an Allied victory in WWII came some good things; the UN, concern for human rights, and relative autonomy for much of the third world from the British and French empires. Hitler and Mussolini certainly weren't going to bring about those things with their heavy-handed politics had they won. It turned out that the force of the greater good won WWII. Is the developing world in perfect shape now? Certainly not, but they're in better shape than they were in the final years of the colonial era.

All Putin wants to accomplish is to restore the world to the situation it was in during the Cold War, with the two greatest powers deadlocked in a relentless antagonism, constantly on the verge of mutually assured nuclear destruction. That's his highest ambition. He's not out to free the world or do anything remarkably noble. We can't afford that anymore, not with the sophistication that weaponry has achieved now. We need peace in the world and allowing Putin to invade Ukraine is rewarding some bad acting.

That's my take on things at this point.

EDIT: Hopefully Putin will learn the easy way and back down from his invasion of Ukraine just as the US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq. But rewarding aggression with victory isn't going to send a very good message to the world, especially not to the heavy handed dictators out there.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:26 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:50 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:15 pm Hitler's, Mussolini's, Franco's, and Putin's reasons for holding and acting upon their ideologies were necessary but insufficient to justify their aggression.

Appeasing the fascists was tried and failed, the ultimatum was ignored, Poland was invaded, therefore the war was a just war qua "the war".

A war that could have been avoided by more co-operation and less greed.

True, but the fascists wouldn't cooperate, almost by definition.

How and why did the fascist come to power??
1) the post war arrangements.
2) recession and austerity.
3) the greed of capitalism which imploded the world's economies.
4) care to add some more?

The same thing is happening now. WHilst there is enough food to feed the world; enough resources for everyone to have a home, we are on the road to fascism through poverty.
War is never going to be an answer.

Certainly war is "never going to be an answer" to the errors of the past, such as the Treaty of Versailles. But the Treaty of Versailles having been done,and the
Nazis having arisen, war against Nazi Germany was a better bet than allowing Nazis to overrun Britain.It was actually uncivilised to be a Nazi and kill Jews, Roma, and disabled people.

Not all wars are justified, or can be justified as wars to preserve civilisation. Tony Blair should not have approved of invading Iraq.The desire for oil or any other commodity is not a justification for killing millions of people. The US should not have gone to war in Vietnam no matter how much the US feared communism, as these countries such as Vietnam and Cambodia were not the US and did not threaten the US. The Vietnam war caused civilian carnage including the Mai Lai massacre, and was a main cause of international distrust of the US.

There is news that Iran is planning a huge mass execution of civilian protesters who have been protesting the murder of a young woman, by the hands of government agents. Apparently, this is the straw that broke the camel's back, not to make light of the atrocity.

Maybe the oppressive Iranian regime wants to out-evil the Tiananmen Square architects by publicizing their brutal brand of dissent-dissuasion to the world, rather than trying to hide it behind their great wall of information control.

There is also news that this is all fake news. Guess we won't know for sure until it happens, then it's time to debate whether or not folks really die.

*

I heard Bibi say in an interview that definitive proof of Iran's nuclear intent exists, as if that's necessary to know the implications of aiding their efforts. Guess skeptics won't know for sure until it happens, and they better hope NIMBY.



(much of life and sometimes writing is autopilot)

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:31 pmHow do we know we are actually being "moral creatures?" What standard/standards or formula are we using to decide that we are being moral?

If you recognize yourself as free with your life, liberty, and property are yours, full stop; if you recognize your fellows as free, their lives, liberties, and properties as theirs, full stop: you're off to a good start.

but if you have a different standard, and I am not following it, am I still being moral?

If you will not recognize you have no claim on the other guy's life, liberty, and property, and you act accordingly, no, you're not moral.

There is one trick that works but I admit that it is a cheap one and it does not improve your self-esteem.

You assume and accept that the world is just as bad as it seems to be so every day is a miracle.
But:
Today I am still free to decide what I have for breakfast and I enjoy it as a privilage.

It is probably known that survivors of gulags and other terrible establishments develop an irrational hunger for just being alive.

Where I live the pressure against unvaccinated people became so devestating that I was close to crushing mentally. I felt like in a totaliterian state. I am still trying to recover.