Philosophy Now Forum

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:51 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:45 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:27 am

The title may be right, for the totality may not be a system but the source of all systems, as far as we know in our everyday reality all things are systems, but is the totality itself a system? Perhaps the totality is endless, and still not a system, just a cauldron of energies.

There are no systems, excpet those we decide are of interest to us.
The totality contains all, and all acts to its nature.
"System" is just condensation of items where causal interactions interest us, and which lead to outcomes of interest to us.
But these are not objectively systematic.
We have in interest in the causality which led to life and the appearance of humans, but to imply it was a system is a conceit about purpose.

Name me something that is not a system.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:51 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:45 am

There are no systems, excpet those we decide are of interest to us.
The totality contains all, and all acts to its nature.
"System" is just condensation of items where causal interactions interest us, and which lead to outcomes of interest to us.
But these are not objectively systematic.
We have in interest in the causality which led to life and the appearance of humans, but to imply it was a system is a conceit about purpose.

Name me something that is not a system.

any part of a system is not a system.
The universe.
Mars Bars.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:57 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:51 am

Name me something that is not a system.

any part of a system is not a system.
The universe.
Mars Bars.

Afraid not, the elements that constitute a system are systems themselves, right down to the lowly atom.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:51 am Name me something that is not a system.

any part of a system is not a system.

Consul wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:28 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:51 am Name me something that is not a system.

any part of a system is not a system.

…unless it's a subsystem. My body is a system, and so is my brain, which is part of my body, being a subsystem of it. But the simple elements of a system are non-systems, since systems are by definition complex, composite entities.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:57 pm No each thing acts to its nature. Systems are emergent qualities which the compoents are not aware of. They are entities which are created in the minds of humans due to their interest in the universe.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:40 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:57 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

any part of a system is not a system.
The universe.
Mars Bars.

Afraid not, the elements that constitute a system are systems themselves, right down to the lowly atom.

Only subjectively.
You could try and do more than just say not. You could actually try to demonstrate your claim.

Consul wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:28 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:51 am Name me something that is not a system.

any part of a system is not a system.

…unless it's a subsystem. My body is a system, and so is my brain, which is part of my body, being a subsystem of it. But the simple elements of a system are non-systems, since systems are by definition complex, composite entities.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:57 pm

Consul wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:28 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:53 am

any part of a system is not a system.

…unless it's a subsystem. My body is a system, and so is my brain, which is part of my body, being a subsystem of it. But the simple elements of a system are non-systems, since systems are by definition complex, composite entities.

No each thing acts to its nature. Systems are emergent qualities which the compoents are not aware of. They are entities which are created in the minds of humans due to their interest in the universe.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:00 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:34 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 am

Either way "everything" is a thing.
To be charitable what he is trying for is Russel's paradox; Can a set of all things be in a set of itself.

The set of all things is a set of itself , because the set of all things (like other sets)has a unique defining attribute: the unique defining attribute of the set of all things is the set of all things is cause of itself.

What do you call the set of thing that contains the set of all things?

Consul wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:26 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:57 pm No each thing acts to its nature. Systems are emergent qualities which the compoents are not aware of. They are entities which are created in the minds of humans due to their interest in the universe.

Systems aka complexes are two or more (simple or nonsimple) entities in relations. Natural systems such as galaxies, organisms, and atoms are not "created in the minds of humans due to their interest in the universe."

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 7:49 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:40 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:57 pm

Afraid not, the elements that constitute a system are systems themselves, right down to the lowly atom.

Only subjectively.
You could try and do more than just say not. You could actually try to demonstrate your claim.

If you wish to know more about systems, google, general systems theory.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 7:54 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:57 pm

Consul wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:28 pm

…unless it's a subsystem. My body is a system, and so is my brain, which is part of my body, being a subsystem of it. But the simple elements of a system are non-systems, since systems are by definition complex, composite entities.

No each thing acts to its nature. Systems are emergent qualities which the compoents are not aware of. They are entities which are created in the minds of humans due to their interest in the universe.

Each thing is a system, period. If the atom is defined as a system and it is, then everything is a system. A Un system, I would imagine would not be a thing, it would be unmanifest energy.