Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:25 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:42 pm The Chinese model is called capitalism.

Well, yeah - you've called it that.

In order to avoid having to explain why it's kicking capitalism's ass in terms of wealth creation.

Now tell us about the state-sanctioned theft of intellectual property in China.
Tell us about the human rights abuses.
Tell us about the racketeering of foreign companies and protectionism of Chinese companies.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:44 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:25 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:22 am
That's yet another blanket statement you've made that doesn't look very sustainable. Will you do anything to justify any of them at any point?

FIAT begins its failure the moment one unit of currency is counterfeited.

That's not failing by any standard other people would recognise, and you've already describe standard issuance of currency as "counterfeit".

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:25 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pmtherefore you must have what I refer to as "real" money, that is, something that people cannot counterfeit [including central banks].

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:22 amSo ... bitcoin is "real" money then?

Crypto is real money if the society accepts it as such. Personally, it seems too good to be true but time will tell.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:25 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm I agree that perhaps the biggest problem people have faced over the centuries is folks having their labor-value stolen by those who control the economic system. Man working towards a method that would compensate a worker for the amount of labor-value s/he produces [less overhead] should be a long-range goal of the species. Perhaps a couple of centuries down the road.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:22 amThat's the Labour Theory of Value, you complete commie
After everything you've written, now you are chanelling Karl Marx.

Actually, I've read nearly the entire collected works of Marks and Engels. Marx was a brilliant economist but a really lousy sociologist and political scientist. What he did in the 1840's and 50's was truly remarkable. You should read some of his work if you have not.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:44 amHis historical method had some merit, but economists tend to regard his economic theory to be behind the times on the day it was written, failing to account for the proportion of value that comes from design for instance even while that became ever more obvious.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:37 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:16 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:42 pm

Actually, the Chinese model is called slavery.

So the enormous Chinese middle and upper middle class are all slaves?

Considerin' what sits atop them all: yep.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:57 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm If someone takes someone else's rightful possessions by force then they should be made to give them back.

Much wealth in the UK comes from the Atlantic slave trade, and from slave economies such as Southern States of the US as were. Those of us in the UK who can pay back what is owed to the descendants of slaves, should be made to do so.

Let's suppose that's true. But here's a true fact: 100% of the slave owners were Democrats. The Republicans were in the industrial north, and fought to abolish slavery. They died doing it, in the bloodiest war ever fought on American soil.

So let's make the Democrats pay everybody for what they did. They've got lots of money: let's have it, then.

But that, too would be unjust. For whatever the ancient Democrats did, their children's children's children had no part in. Still, the Left would say we have to accuse them all of "systemic racism," and "historical guilt," and "white privilege," and "complicity in oppression." And we must forever bludgeon their innocent progeny, and make them feel horrible for the legacy of a slavery their great great grandparents caused, and in which they never could even participate at all.

From either side, Democrat or Republican, or just from common sense, that's just lunacy. But if anybody gets reparations, let it be the direct ancestors of the slaves themselves, and also the Republicans and northerners who defeated the Democrats and freed the slaves, and died in such huge numbers to do it.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:43 pmI do agree it' s a complex situation of who deserves to be compensated, and by whom.

Africans whose civilisations were destroyed by colonists form a large group who are still in dire need.

Obviously the USA has profited from slave labour and so richer Americans and Europeans should be taxed to repair the injuries

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:06 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:43 pmI do agree it' s a complex situation of who deserves to be compensated, and by whom.

It's not complex at all. A person is only responsible for what he or she actually had a choice about doing or not doing. Nobody alive today owned a slave. Nobody today set up the system or caused the CIvil War. The people responsible, other than, say, the Democrat governors of the '60s, if any of those old toads are still alive, are all dead.

Nobody today owes anybody a cent. That's the truth.

Africans whose civilisations were destroyed by colonists form a large group who are still in dire need.

That's their own fault, too. Don't treat Africans like infants: they are responsible adults, too.

The system of tribal violence that ruled in Africa long before colonialism has re-emerged after colonialism, and still causes all of Africa's political problems. Colonialism, for its part, had both bad aspects and some good -- though few people are ready to talk about any of the goods of colonialism. But in any case, colonialism was unwarranted and unnecessary, so we can leave it there.

Obviously the USA has profited from slave labour and so richer Americans and Europeans should be taxed to repair the injuries

.
No, they shouldn't. They had no part in all that. Nobody asked them if they wanted to be born where they are, and who they are. You don't get to be guilty by being born European or American. That's silly.

So long as you continue to think Africans have to be "helped by" reparations, the truth is that you're just supporting a colonial attitude. You're thinking, "Poor black folks...they need a handout, or they're just never going to get civilized. I can't blame them for anything they do...they're just children, victims, weak and helpless."

They are not. They are human adults.

They're responsible for themselves, and colonialism is a historical curiosity...unless you count the current colonization of Africa by the Chinese Communists, which is very much a live issue now. But I'll warrant most people would rather carp about the long-dead problem of colonialism from Europe or America than deal with a live and serious problem of actual colonialism today, like the Communists.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:06 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:43 pmI do agree it' s a complex situation of who deserves to be compensated, and by whom.

It's not complex at all. A person is only responsible for what he or she actually had a choice about doing or not doing. Nobody alive today owned a slave. Nobody today set up the system or caused the CIvil War. The people responsible, other than, say, the Democrat governors of the '60s, if any of those old toads are still alive, are all dead.

Nobody today owes anybody a cent. That's the truth.

Africans whose civilisations were destroyed by colonists form a large group who are still in dire need.

That's their own fault, too. Don't treat Africans like infants: they are responsible adults, too.

The system of tribal violence that ruled in Africa long before colonialism has re-emerged after colonialism, and still causes all of Africa's political problems. Colonialism, for its part, had both bad aspects and some good -- though few people are ready to talk about any of the goods of colonialism. But in any case, colonialism was unwarranted and unnecessary, so we can leave it there.

Obviously the USA has profited from slave labour and so richer Americans and Europeans should be taxed to repair the injuries

.
No, they shouldn't. They had no part in all that. Nobody asked them if they wanted to be born where they are, and who they are. You don't get to be guilty by being born European or American. That's silly.

So long as you continue to think Africans have to be "helped by" reparations, the truth is that you're just supporting a colonial attitude. You're thinking, "Poor black folks...they need a handout, or they're just never going to get civilized. I can't blame them for anything they do...they're just children, victims, weak and helpless."

They are not. They are human adults.

They're responsible for themselves, and colonialism is a historical curiosity...unless you count the current colonization of Africa by the Chinese Communists, which is very much a live issue now. But I'll warrant most people would rather carp about the long-dead problem of colonialism from Europe or America than deal with a live and serious problem of actual colonialism today, like the Communists.

Well off Americans and Europeans obviously had no part in all that slavery economics at the time as they were not alive at the time.

But we are alive now and we are profiting from the capital prosperity that the slave economy, and the violent colonialism, provided in perpetuity.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:23 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:06 pm
It's not complex at all. A person is only responsible for what he or she actually had a choice about doing or not doing. Nobody alive today owned a slave. Nobody today set up the system or caused the CIvil War. The people responsible, other than, say, the Democrat governors of the '60s, if any of those old toads are still alive, are all dead.

Nobody today owes anybody a cent. That's the truth.


That's their own fault, too. Don't treat Africans like infants: they are responsible adults, too.

The system of tribal violence that ruled in Africa long before colonialism has re-emerged after colonialism, and still causes all of Africa's political problems. Colonialism, for its part, had both bad aspects and some good -- though few people are ready to talk about any of the goods of colonialism. But in any case, colonialism was unwarranted and unnecessary, so we can leave it there.

.
No, they shouldn't. They had no part in all that. Nobody asked them if they wanted to be born where they are, and who they are. You don't get to be guilty by being born European or American. That's silly.

So long as you continue to think Africans have to be "helped by" reparations, the truth is that you're just supporting a colonial attitude. You're thinking, "Poor black folks...they need a handout, or they're just never going to get civilized. I can't blame them for anything they do...they're just children, victims, weak and helpless."

They are not. They are human adults.

They're responsible for themselves, and colonialism is a historical curiosity...unless you count the current colonization of Africa by the Chinese Communists, which is very much a live issue now. But I'll warrant most people would rather carp about the long-dead problem of colonialism from Europe or America than deal with a live and serious problem of actual colonialism today, like the Communists.

Well off Americans and Europeans obviously had no part in all that slavery economics at the time as they were not alive at the time.

Well-off or poor makes no difference to this, and American or European, or Tamil or Yoruban makes no difference either. Whatever you are today, you were not alive when the nonsense of slavery or colonialism happened. The generations that did it, own it. End of story.

But we are alive now and we are profiting from the capital prosperity that the slave economy, and the violent colonialism, provided in perpetuity.

No, no...that's totally nonsense.

"The Southern Way of Life" is dead long ago, and was economically moribund even during the Civil War. Slavery actually turned out to be an economic dead end. It was the greater economic power of the industrial North that turned the tide of the war against the South. Industrialization, not cotton farming, became the source of American wealth. Slavery was done...it was only a matter of time, anyway.

There are enough bad things about how some wealth gets made, without us trying to blame 18th Century dead things.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:23 pmA person is only responsible for what he or she actually had a choice about doing or not doing.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:49 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:44 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:25 am
FIAT begins its failure the moment one unit of currency is counterfeited.

That's not failing by any standard other people would recognise, and you've already describe standard issuance of currency as "counterfeit".

The USD was worth more in 1900 then it was in 1800. After the FED was created in 1913 [in the dark of night, btw], the USD is now worth approx. 3 cents. Does that qualify as failure for you? And the dollar is the least dirty shirt in the laundry basket.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:49 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:25 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pmtherefore you must have what I refer to as "real" money, that is, something that people cannot counterfeit [including central banks].

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:22 amSo ... bitcoin is "real" money then?

Crypto is real money if the society accepts it as such. Personally, it seems too good to be true but time will tell.

Good news, society accepts the US Dollar as real money. So you use real money every day and you don't need to change anything.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:25 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm I agree that perhaps the biggest problem people have faced over the centuries is folks having their labor-value stolen by those who control the economic system. Man working towards a method that would compensate a worker for the amount of labor-value s/he produces [less overhead] should be a long-range goal of the species. Perhaps a couple of centuries down the road.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:22 amThat's the Labour Theory of Value, you complete commie
After everything you've written, now you are chanelling Karl Marx.

Actually, I've read nearly the entire collected works of Marks and Engels. Marx was a brilliant economist but a really lousy sociologist and political scientist. What he did in the 1840's and 50's was truly remarkable. You should read some of his work if you have not.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:44 amHis historical method had some merit, but economists tend to regard his economic theory to be behind the times on the day it was written, failing to account for the proportion of value that comes from design for instance even while that became ever more obvious.

So does that make Newton or Einstein idiots because eventually their theories will eventually be disproved? Cut the guy a break. WHat he figured out and when he figured it out is truly remarkable. Of course, some of his theories were BS, but so what? The guy was a f******* genius.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:40 pm Yes, the system is not perfect [as a matter of fact, it's horribly corrupt at the moment], but that doesn't change the fact that there is only one economic system...capitalism.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:40 pm The rest take the profits generated from such and re-distribute. Are their vestiges of slavery and pseudo-feudalism going...of course, but the system that run global and national economies is capitalism.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:43 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:15 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:59 pm Why would you ever want to prostitute your economy by making it dependent on resources over which you have zero control?

That's a great question. Let's just take gold as an example [but perhaps other resources could be used]. The most important quality of money is that it hold its store of value [and in the optimal case, increase it's value...as happened in the U.S. during the 19th century]. If the currency increases in value due to an increase in social productivity, then all who use the currency realize an increase in their wealth. This is why so many emigrated to the U.S. in the 19th century. Otherwise [and especially with FIAT currencies] only the elite benefit.

So we are designating gold the substance which is going to back the currency. There are those who are concerned that there is only so much gold and this would prevent an economy from expanding. This could not be further from the truth. Let's say that there is x tons of gold backing all national currencies. So what happens when you have x tons of gold and y goods and services? We do the math and you find that z amount of gold equals v value. If the amount of gold stays stable in the next year, and the amount of GDP increases by 5%, then the gold has also increased in value by 5%.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:43 pmThis would only be true if every country on earth had the gold standard.
I would also mean 5% inflation, since the rise in gold is not balanced by a rise in economic wealth.

Same amount of money, 5% increase in goods and services means DEflation not INflation. THIS is the natural order of things using real money. Now the same amount of money buys more goods and services. Again, this is what happened in the U.S. using real money in the 19th century.

An increase in productivity would also be shared by all who use the currency. Imagine if all currencies in use increased by the amount of productivity increase over the past century. THIS is how you naturally spread out the productive wealth of a society and why it is critical for the elite to do anything they can to control money. Think about it. This has been known for thousands of years.

By using phony money, the elite [and governments that benefit from this scam] are taking most [if not all] the increase in in productivity and stashing it in their pockets. This is trillions of dollars.

The other part of the scam is how they leverage counterfeiting to work with their system of credit which [of course] is the greatest Ponzi scheme of all time! If you were a banker, wouldn't you want to create money by loaning it into existence and then have to create enough money each year simply to pay off the interest due [to yourself]?

It was Henry Ford who said [and I paraphrase], "If the American people tonight found out how money works, by tomorrow morning there would be revolution."

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: So, a 'man' is therefore just a member, or belongs to, the group known as human beings.

Just a herd member, yeah?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: Each 'man' is just FREE.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: LOOK, you BELIEVE you have the, so-called, "right" to KILL people just because they touch IMMATERIAL things

Nope.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: There are a multitude of other examples I could provide.

You haven't provided even one yet.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: BUT you BELIEVE you ALREADY have the 'right' to KILL human beings DEAD if they "touch" your stuff, correct?

Nope.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: And YET here you are being the VERY FIRST ONE to CLAIM that you can SHOOT people ["other" men] DEAD if they touch your toothpick.

Nope. Never said it. Never hinted at it.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: You do NOT have to say. 'my world', for us to KNOW what exists in 'your world'.

You say that I've said if someone touches my stuff, even if it's a toothpick, or they're standing in a building, which I claim is mine, I believe I have the 'right' to forfeit that person's life, liberty, or property, in part or in whole.

I never said it. Never even hinted at it.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: ANY one only has to look through your writings to SEE what you have written.

Yep. That's what I've said to any number of folks on any number of topics: go see for yourself.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: If you, LOL, have supposedly NEVER even hinted at the above, then it will NOT be here, for ALL NOR for ANY one to SEE.

It's not here. Go, see for yourself.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: And, when you SHOOT people DEAD are you NOT forfeiting their lives?

Nope, I'm takin' a life. Whether my takin' it is justified is another matter.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: Are you suggesting that people only give up their life, liberty, or property COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY?

I hadn't really thought of it that way, but -- yeah -- in context, that's the case.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm If you value what's mine enough to take it as yours, to steal it, then you voluntarily risk your life, your liberty, or your property.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: You quote the "american heritage dictionary", as though that should be one the WHOLE population of earth looks at, listen to, and follows

Fair point. So, which dictionary did you use to look up forfeit?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm age: NO one PURPOSES 'loses' ANY thing like their life, liberty, NOR 'property".

If you mean to say no one purposely loses anything like their life, liberty, or property, you're partially right. No one gambles with the intent of losing, but only an idiot gambles not understanding he may very well lose. The skydiver voluntarily risks his life, the stockcar driver voluntarily risks his life, the climber of a vertical rock face voluntarily risks his life, the thief voluntarily risks his life.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm Hell, for most folks, just gettin' out of bed in the mornin' entails risk and the possibility of loss.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm If someone takes someone else's rightful possessions by force then they should be made to give them back.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm Much wealth in the UK comes from the Atlantic slave trade, and from slave economies such as Southern States of the US as were. Those of us in the UK who can pay back what is owed to the descendants of slaves, should be made to do so.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:57 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm If someone takes someone else's rightful possessions by force then they should be made to give them back.

Much wealth in the UK comes from the Atlantic slave trade, and from slave economies such as Southern States of the US as were. Those of us in the UK who can pay back what is owed to the descendants of slaves, should be made to do so.

Let's suppose that's true. But here's a true fact: 100% of the slave owners were Democrats.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm The Republicans were in the industrial north, and fought to abolish slavery. They died doing it, in the bloodiest war ever fought on American soil.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm So let's make the Democrats pay everybody for what they did. They've got lots of money: let's have it, then.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm But that, too would be unjust. For whatever the ancient Democrats did, their children's children's children had no part in.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm Still, the Left would say we have to accuse them all of "systemic racism," and "historical guilt," and "white privilege," and "complicity in oppression." And we must forever bludgeon their innocent progeny, and make them feel horrible for the legacy of a slavery their great great grandparents caused, and in which they never could even participate at all.

From either side, Democrat or Republican, or just from common sense, that's just lunacy. But if anybody gets reparations, let it be the direct ancestors of the slaves themselves, and also the Republicans and northerners who defeated the Democrats and freed the slaves, and died in such huge numbers to do it.