Philosophy Now Forum

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=489003 time=1610311300 user_id=9431]
[quote=Sculptor post_id=488987 time=1610308221 user_id=17400]
Governments find they are having to legitimate themselves on an almost daily basis.
[/quote]
You don't know what "legitimation" means, I see.
[/quote]

The act of conforming to the law or to rules. Making it subject to constant iteration; all but arbitrary.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:41 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:50 pm Governments find they are having to legitimate themselves on an almost daily basis.

You don't know what "legitimation" means, I see.

The act of conforming to the law or to rules. Making it subject to constant iteration; all but arbitrary.

No, it means "the procedure of justifying the powers and limits of a system's authority, using rational means."

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=489020 time=1610313327 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=489014 time=1610312708 user_id=15238]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=489003 time=1610311300 user_id=9431]

You don't know what "legitimation" means, I see.
[/quote]

The act of conforming to the law or to rules. Making it subject to constant iteration; all but arbitrary.
[/quote]
No, it means "the procedure of justifying the powers and limits of a system's authority, using rational means."
[/quote]

If that be the standard then at least no currently existing government is legitimate because all have lost any connection to their original justifications, which usually weren't sufficient anyway, which is usually why they failed.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:25 pm ...no currently existing government is legitimate ...

If that were so, the only way you'd be able to detect it is if you knew already what "legitimation" was appropriate to that government, so you could say they had not met their burden of proof. But since you apparently can't specify what "legitimation" you would recognize anyway, you're in no position to know whether any has or not.

You're just lost, on that issue.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:41 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:50 pm Governments find they are having to legitimate themselves on an almost daily basis.

You don't know what "legitimation" means, I see.

Please refer to the remarks I made above

Wisconsin
Jan 5th
DA decides to NOT bring charges against a white police officer that shot Jacob Blake.

Jacob Blake 29 yo African American, was shot SEVEN times at point blank range IN THE BACK.

This is America.

Fascism is NOT limited.

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=489032 time=1610316014 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=489023 time=1610313951 user_id=15238]
...no currently existing government is legitimate ...
[/quote]
If that were so, the only way you'd be able to detect it is if you knew already what "legitimation" was appropriate to that government, so you could say they had not met their burden of proof. But since you apparently can't specify what "legitimation" you would recognize anyway, you're in no position to know whether any has or not.

You're just lost, on that issue.
[/quote]

For most governments it's not as hard as all that. Just see if they follow their own rules.

If that's not enough, see whether all citizens are meaningfully integrated. See how the jurisdiction was originally established. By establishing what legitimacy is Not, we can give every government a standard to shoot for without establishing particularly what it Is.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:54 pm Wisconsin
Jan 5th
DA decides to NOT bring charges against a white police officer that shot Jacob Blake.

Jacob Blake 29 yo African American, was shot SEVEN times at point blank range IN THE BACK.

This is America.

Fascism is NOT limited.

Why would a policman do this? I thought police were a disciplined force.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:28 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:54 pm Wisconsin
Jan 5th
DA decides to NOT bring charges against a white police officer that shot Jacob Blake.

Jacob Blake 29 yo African American, was shot SEVEN times at point blank range IN THE BACK.

This is America.

Fascism is NOT limited.

Why would a policman do this? I thought police were a disciplined force.

Why indeed.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:33 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:28 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:54 pm Wisconsin
Jan 5th
DA decides to NOT bring charges against a white police officer that shot Jacob Blake.

Jacob Blake 29 yo African American, was shot SEVEN times at point blank range IN THE BACK.

This is America.

Fascism is NOT limited.

Why would a policman do this? I thought police were a disciplined force.

Why indeed.

Well then does that mean the American police force is corrupt, or does it mean some officers are not properly trained?

I even read that some of the mob who broke into the Capitol were serving soldiers.I really do not understand how disciplined trained men such as soldiers or policemen can disobey their superiors.These people in the mob were guilty of recognisable crimes according to a civilised set of laws.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:47 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:33 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:28 am

Why would a policman do this? I thought police were a disciplined force.

Why indeed.

Well then does that mean the American police force is corrupt, or does it mean some officers are not properly trained?

I even read that some of the mob who broke into the Capitol were serving soldiers.I really do not understand how disciplined trained men such as soldiers or policemen can disobey their superiors.These people in the mob were guilty of recognisable crimes according to a civilised set of laws.

You can't generalise too much.
A ex-serviceman employed as a Capitol Hill policeman was beaten to death defending the Capitol.
There were at least 2 elected members of the governement in the crowd and another prominent Senator who fist-bumped the crowd as he passed by. Guilliani exhorted a "trial by combat".

America seems to be in the grip of a culture that make belief a simple choice: choose Fox News; Choose Trump; Choose climate denial; choose antivax; choose covid is a fraud.

America is founded on Faith and belief what can we expect?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:58 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:08 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:41 pm
No, it's not. It's Socialist. National Socialist. That's what Nazi means.

So it's Leftist.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nope. It's true. See: Oxford.

Na·zi
/ˈnätsē/
noun
noun: Nazi; plural noun: Nazis
HISTORICAL
a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

i affirm histroy, and you kno of history too.

you may think only leftiosts are for murder and not rightists - i showed you of argentina, uganda,etc...

i affirm and know of history, but we seem to differ on mnetality - thugs is thug right or left. - i affirm you deny.

why deny the obvious.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:07 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:47 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:19 am

agree fully - you have understanding of nature law and liberty.

yes, I do

and I understand when government dis-embeds itself from its proper role it needs challengin'

'murican governance has dis-embeded itself from its proper role...you, I reckon, believe it can be reined in peacably, by way of the first three boxes...I believe the first three boxes are nearly exhausted, exhausted, not by ORANGE MAN, but by the systematic, decades-long, erosion of the recognition of what we agree is natural to man (his ownness)

this erosion of the recognition of natural rights is not particular or limited to repubs or dems, but is a definin' quality of the state, the leviathan our republican form of governance has degenerated into

you afirm (constantly, it seems) the constitution, but do you recognize how far we've strayed from it, from the principles codified in both declaration and constitution? do you recognize the options for remedy are dwindling? do you recognize what may be the only, dreadful, remedy?

probably not

ageed fully with all you say abov - but i side side with the Rule of Law per our Constituttion.


you side with the mobs - that hates our constituttion via grevencees and a corrupt gov.

- so knowing history - France/Russai - its better to reform a corupt gov than remove it for anarchy sake///////////////so you are mad and gov is corrupt - so burn the houe the down vai Orange man/chao................ok, now tall is burned down - you fucking think the mob will all of the suddden afrims and restore our Constituttion? - instead of just kill m,illion as a mob with anger and pitchforks/? (if so you are one naive mofo).


clue. it hard to build, easty to destray.


if you are one of the insurrectionlist mpbs we had last week - fuck you! - you are an agent of destruction, not reform, and do not lovw my constitution - you are just a mad guy willing to burn it instead of defend it so fuck you!.


2-cents.


you are an cult 45 fascist, with no real understanding of L:iberty nor love of my Constitution so why do i waste my time with you - you are like the million that gave Hitler his power.

so fk you, you do not value my Constitution nor understand it. you just use it for clothes yourself in self riechtousness while perporming insserection and suddision.

just another Benedict arnold.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:41 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:50 pm Governments find they are having to legitimate themselves on an almost daily basis.

You don't know what "legitimation" means, I see.

Please refer to the remarks I made above

I was.

gaffo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:22 am why deny the obvious.

I was about to ask you the same thing. Nazism is National Socialism.