Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:39 pm And so what the seer does apparently see is made up of pure nothingness,

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:47 pmThis is false, if what you just said is true. Reality isn't "made up of pure nothingness." It IS something. The thing that we have a right to question is the percipient's view of that reality, not the reality itself.

Remember, too, that the percipient being erroneous is possible but not necessary. That's important. There are such things as true statements about the real world.

One, for example, would be "DAM and IC are emailing right now." You perceive that we are, but your perception is not erroneous. You are actually correct. You can still doubt that, but you'll just be wrong about reality if you do.

But the 'something' is only created by association via the(cause & effect) appearance within the illusion of the apparent seen world appearing to the seer. An Illusory something because there is nothing to be seen that is separate from the seeing. Both Seer & Seen each causing one and the other to be here/there in the same instance.

The seer cannot be seen or known. The seer's only existence is within it's illusory images it projects from within itself to appear outside of itself, and this is conceptually known as the dream world of duality...but in reality there is no such duality, reality is non-dual, meaning it's nothing appearing as something which is the same one reality. Nothing and Something are the same reality, simultaneously existing as duality, aka non-duality.

Reality does not question anything, reality just is. The questioner lives only in the imagined dream of separation, which is nothing appearing as something. Truths, lies, belong to the dream world, the world that does not exist except in this conception, aka duality which is an appearance of nothing. .non-duality is simply pointing to the not-twoness - the not dual existence...aka nothingness appearing as itself, as something.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:18 pm Both Seer & Seen each causing one and the other to be here/there in the same instance.

Not quite. There is something "seen" which is not fully accurately "seen." But both exist. One is reality, the other is perception. Perception can be erroneous; reality cannot be. Reality is what it is. Whether or not you or I know what it is does not change that.

It's like this: I might decide I think you're a man. I have no reason not to, except for your word by email. I might believe it, perceive it, and even integrate it with my own view of truth. I might be completely sold out to that view, and never doubt it again...

Will it make you a man? No.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:23 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:18 pm Both Seer & Seen each causing one and the other to be here/there in the same instance.

Not quite. There is something "seen" which is not fully accurately "seen." But both exist. One is reality, the other is perception. Perception can be erroneous; reality cannot be. Reality is what it is. Whether or not you or I know what it is does not change that.

Ok, I understand that. But what has this got to do with God, surely reality is silent, but the idea of a God is an erroneous perception.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:23 pmIt's like this: I might decide I think you're a man. I have no reason not to, except for your word by email. I might believe it, perceive it, and even integrate it with my own view of truth. I might be completely sold out to that view, and never doubt it again...

Will it make you a man? No.

I agree, but what has this knowledge got to do with a God, which can only be an erroneous perception.

Although it is clear that a perception is known, it is not known what is perceiving the perception without that too being just an erroneous perception ?

What if there was no man..what if the concept man is just an idea known by no one in this conception ?

The knower of the conceived concept cannot be known, without turning the knower into another known concept.

Knowing therefore, cannot be known, for what is known can know nothing...meaning, no known thing, cannot know.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:34 pm But what has this got to do with God, surely reality is silent,

"The heavens tell of the glory of God;
And their expanse declares the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard." (Ps. 19:1-3)

“Earth is crammed with heaven, and every bush is aflame with the glory of God..." (E.B. Browning)

"The world is charged with the grandeur of God." (G.M. Hopkins)

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

Apparently, not everybody agrees with you about that.

Immanuel does it matter if there is no belief for a God?

Does the universe care whether there is a God or not?

What use would a God be to the universe?

And where can the universe exist except in the mind, the mental construct that the human brain creates? where was/is the universe until the human brains construct showed up?

And what will happen to the non-believer? ..except nothing, except be cast out of life forever, which to me sounds like a really great idea.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:47 pm
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

Apparently, not everybody agrees with you about that.

No not everybody sees reality the same way, and thank goodness for that.

So tell me, how is Gods wrath revealed, and what is the experience of God's wrath likely to feel like exactly?

I've tried to understand this idea of a God. I've often contemplated how wonderful it all sounds, I've even convinced myself many times over of it's vadility and it's realness, but then there's always something else in me that just puts an end to all the believing knowing that it's all just a bunch of believed fantasies roaming around the empty caverns of a believing brain that got too big for it's own boots.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:49 pm What use would a God be to the universe?

You've got the question backwards. It's "what use would the universe be to God?" The other way makes no sense.

And where can the universe exist except in the mind

We answered that. In reality.

And what will happen to the non-believer? ..except nothing, except be cast out of life forever, which to me sounds like a really great idea.

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:11-15)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:00 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:49 pm What use would a God be to the universe?

You've got the question backwards. It's "what use would the universe be to God?" The other way makes no sense.

So your knowledge is a forward question as opposed to my backward question, ok manuel man that makes perfect sense.

Forward backward, where's that except as a mental contruct which is where exactly?

And where can the universe exist except in the mind

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:00 pmWe answered that. In reality.

There is no reality except in this conception that really cannot be conceived of without turning that not-knowing into a known that cannot know. This is the dilemma of the mind of artificial mental constructs.

And what will happen to the non-believer? ..except nothing, except be cast out of life forever, which to me sounds like a really great idea.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:00 pm"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:11-15)

So I am to be judged and if I do not meet with the required expectation. I am cast into the lake of fire, to burn and turn to dust. Sounds like the same place where all of the human corpses who are cremated here on earth go. I'm not sure there is any known knowledge of the earthly afterbirth, namely death, unless you know of some you would like to share with me?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:00 pm "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:11-15)

So I am to be judged and if I do not meet with the required expectation. I am cast into the lake of fire, to burn and turn to dust.

"Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (Rev. 14:9-12)

Jesus said,"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:20 am Nature doesn't care whether one is atheist or theist. Both are subject to the same cancellation as is all life.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 pmIf what Atheists believe is true, this is true. I agree. But if it is not, it is not.

Of course! But it's the probability magnitude which determines the almost certain conclusion between that which is observed and that which is not and cannot be such as afterlife or last judgments which exist merely as human projections, a novel carried forward into an after-death scenario in which credibility is forced to vanish.

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:20 am What we assume to happen afterwards is simply a projection which wishful thinking finds indispensable. Sounds trite but we create fictions because we can and because it pleases us to do so.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 pmThis also is true sometimes. People do create fictions to comfort or "please" themselves. But what's the relevance? It's just as easy for Atheism to be a wish-fulfillment fantasy as for Theism....

Completely incorrect! Atheism has nothing to prove because there literally is nothing to prove by way of a god, the created, constructed or scripturalized kind being its ONLY manifestation. Atheism is the natural response when not a single thing ever showed up to negate it. Therefore atheism does not need to fabricate a story as ALL theisms would; it merely defaults to what history has never proven to exist. Put another way as Lear said to Cordelia, Nothing becomes of Nothing!

This allows an atheist to ponder EVERYTHING else which doesn't enslave one to a god by way of threats that one must believe or yield to oblivion or judgement. A more pathetic instance of god I can't imagine and since I can't imagine GOD to be pathetic such commands can only come from humans with the gullibility to believe it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 pmHow far, then, does that argument get us? It works equally well for both sides of the question, so it's pretty much useless. Anyway, it's merely ad hominem, another case of trying to argue against the proposition by trying to insult the proposer. So we can both let that one go

No! Let's not let it go. How many times have I told you to address the arguments made and not make it contingent on my character or the welfare of my soul. I asked you at least a half dozen times what happens to those who don't believe in Jesus, as you do, but in other divinities or in other ways. But I insulted god as if that were possible. Thus you either ignore inconvenient arguments completely or not reply invoking my character as a non-believer as your excuse not to. You should be the one to talk about ad hominems!

If you want to call it quits just say so!

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:20 amBut "god" can mean a lot of things to a lot of people which as mentioned previously may not include Jesus.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 pmThis is not you, Dubious. You don't believe in either, you say. So you can free your heart from concern...all these others are just blind fools, you say. And what does Atheism say happens to them? Well, you've already said: they are all "subject to the same cancellation as is all life."

This is a Philosophy Forum is it not and this particular section is called the Philosophy of Religion. Since when do I have to believe in god in order to comment on god or religion? That's a preacher's mentality not someone who wants to discuss the subject philosophically!

Yes! we are all subject to the same cancellation process BECAUSE death ALWAYS yields a dead body of some kind. No exceptions and neither you or anyone can claim ever having been witness to any. But it's easy enough to assert in writing anything humans wish to believe. In ancient time resurrections were a big part of mystery religions and not uncommon. The Jesus myth is just a late comer to that story.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 pmBut what if you're wrong?

As measured by that infinitesimal probability I feel certain as certain can be that god AS GOD can't be as deplorable as you make him out to be.

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:03 am ....afterlife or last judgments which exist merely as human projections...

That's your assumption at the moment. Not a safe one, but one you've stated, nevertheless. We shall see.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 pmThis also is true sometimes. People do create fictions to comfort or "please" It's just as easy for Atheism to be a wish-fulfillment fantasy as for Theism....

[/quote]
Completely incorrect! [/quote]
You mean nobody can "just want" to be an Atheist? It's pretty obvious they can.

Atheism has nothing to prove

Sure it does. If it states anything, it owes us evidence. If it states "there is no God," it needs proof. If it does not state "There is no God," then what does it state? Does it state "There might be a God?" Would you be happy to say that's Atheism? Of course not. So Atheism owes us some proof of its one central claim...namely, that it has rationally eliminated the possibility of God from the universe.

Good luck.

That's why all Atheism is really wish-fulfillment fantasy.

How many times have I told you to address the arguments made and not make it contingent on my character or the welfare of my soul.

I'm doing neither. Nothing is "contingent." I'm just telling you what is the case. What you do with it...that's on you now.

Yes! we are all subject to the same cancellation process BECAUSE death ALWAYS yields a dead body of some kind. No exceptions and neither you or anyone can claim ever having been witness to any.

Apparently the Bible disagrees with you on that point. Or rather, you disagree with the Bible.

But we knew that. You are correct: there's no more for me to say to you. You will live and die as you wish; but what happens after that has nothing at all to do with wishing, and everything to do with the truth.

Make a better choice.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:40 am
Make a better choice.

I already made the one, the only one that best yields to history, reality, logic and biblical scholarship. That is my choice. I realize that none of these have any validity that you as a religious fundamentalist would be willing to acknowledge but then your beliefs never required any of that in the first place.

If you want to believe in a 2000 year old Santa Klaus story giving presents in an afterlife for all the good people who believed in Jesus then no absurdity is too absurd for you not to believe. If that comforts you as it has so many in Medieval times then let the church bells ring!

But then most people, including me, don't give a hoot anyways. Many will choose whatever makes them feel good even if it means inverting reality into a myth creating their own version of it! When dead the desire to feel good will flat-line completely never missing what you most expected for being such a good Jesus supporter.

...human nature! It is what it is.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:29 pm
Jesus said,"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

And god gives you free will then drowns you in the lake of fire for not doing what he wants.

My message to all you potential babies that never make it to fertilization process, thank god you never made it, the best gift ever, the gift of never being, can't think of a better way to be.

Can't wait to get back there, back to the time when time was eternally non-existent including me.

Nothing about being alive makes any sense whatsoever. Roll on death.

Unconditional love, what a joke, keep it, stuff it where the sun don't shine.

And god said, I am sending my unconditional love child to earth to check what condition my uncondition is in.

Totally stupid...

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:16 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:40 am Make a better choice.

I already made the one...

I hope not. The matter no longer has anything to do with me, of course. But you will remember this conversation. One day, it will either save you or be a judgment against you. Unlike speculative "others," you will not be able to say, "I never knew...You never told me." That extenuation will never be yours. But if you rethink, it will get you a better outcome.

It could hardly be worse than the one you've chosen to believe in. But sadly for you, it could be.

So think carefully.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:47 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:29 pm Jesus said,"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

And god gives you free will then drowns you in the lake of fire for not doing what he wants.

I am only telling you what the Word of God says. I am not protecting you from it, or apologizing for it, or excusing it to you. You can hear it, or you can reject it. That's not my business. My business is to tell you what it says.

And I've given you the reference, so you can check: that's what it says.