Philosophy Now Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:14 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:10 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Most of the suffering caused in the world we bring upon ourselves. There are exceedingly few episodes in history of what we call evil that we are not responsible for. Why always bring god into the picture when catastrophes happen? We're the fuckers who keep fucking up...perhaps to the point where there's hardly anymore damage to be done. God remains blameless existing or non-existing. God remains non-interventionist, it's primary protocol being as you sow so shall you reap. What could be more just or fair accounting for virtually every instance of good and evil whose sole source is the human psyche. Whether atheist or not, it always seemed extremely wimpy to blame some god for our own self-imposed suffering...most often as consequence of having made others suffer, human or animal. There's always a price to be paid in which even the innocent are not exempt.

First responders and medical personnel are now getting it from their patients and passing it on to their families. I doubt that's an example of "reaping what they sow."

Did you bring this up, or even look at and consider these things when this was happening in other countries? Or, has this only become important to you now because this is getting much closer to 'you' and the ones you only care about?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:25 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:17 am Something that kills old people? Wow. Must be an evil god who would allow such a thing

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

Do these same country people talk about who they should try to save and who they should kill when they only have so many bombs to drop on people's heads.

Viruses do what they do, which is live on living species. Some just happen to live on the human being species.

Only human beings decide and choose to kill human beings. And, I wonder who has killed more human beings, throughout all of human history? Viruses, or human beings?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:32 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:37 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:23 pm OK. If you want bad choices among the things available to choose from I guess that's your business. I'd rather not have evil things to choose from. I can still have a "free will" even when there are only good choices. I can choose from the good choices.

Henry's actually caught the problem, Gary.

If you can only do good, then you are not allowed to choose good. There is, quite simply, not alternative. Your "goodness" then, would be no achievement on your part at all...you would have no hand in it. For it was inevitable. predetermined, absolutely certain before you began. You had no choice between doing the right thing, and doing something not right.

So blame is eliminated, but so is praise.

But there are three additional problems, at least...maybe more. And that first one isn't the biggest.

Secondly, what happens to identity. Part of who we are is composed of the ethical choices we learn to make. That's now eliminated.

Thirdly, although we may make you free from choice today, you weren't yesterday. So if God is good, what does He do about all the things you've already done? What would any good God do?

And there are more problems...

Free will is meaningless when there is no evil. It serves no purpose.

There is still a choice between what is 'better' and what is 'best'.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:32 am I'd rather see less suffering in the world than be that devoted to "free will", as though it's something good in and of itself.

If you Truly would rather see less suffering in the world, then you would certainly choose to do far better than you do now.

If you Truly would rather see less suffering in the world, then you would certainly choose to not do the evil and wrong things that you do now, which causes and creates a considerable amount of harm, damage, and suffering. But, you obviously do not want to look at this fact.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:32 am I think you're confusing something with instrumental value as having intrinsic value.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:42 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:38 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:25 am

It's not just old people. Doctors in some of the more inundated areas are now talking about who they should try to save and who they should let die because they don't have the beds or ventilators for them.

It's overwhelmingly the elderly, and after that people with compromised immune systems.

So are you saying that it isn't a tragedy that the elderly and people with compromised immune systems are suffering right now?

Do the elderly and those with compromised immune systems not suffer right now anyway?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:55 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:53 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:42 am

So are you saying that it isn't a tragedy that the elderly and people with compromised immune systems are suffering right now?

It's a tragedy for them. Do you grieve every time an elderly person you don't know dies of flu? Because there are thousands who do, every year.

Do you grieve for every person killed by American bombs even though you don't know them? I assume you do. I'd rather see people happy and living than dead or choking on their own blood.

How long do you want to see people happy and living for exactly?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 am Free will is meaningless when there is no evil.

Without the possibility of evil, good has no meaning; without choice, there's only the peace of the assembly line, or the grave.

What "assembly line"?

If there was no possibility of evil, then there would only be the possibility of good, and with this possibility only there would obviously be NO "assembly line". If there was only good, then there would only be enjoyment, and thus only happiness as well.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 am I'd rather see less suffering in the world than be that devoted to "free will"

So, you favor robot-world. Ever see the stepford wives (the original, not the remake)?

It's unlikely you'll get robot world by way of god, so mebbe you can get gov to mass produce thorazine and introduce it to the water supply. Soma, baby. Or mebbe you can lobby for behavior-moderatin' implants. Or, more simply, round up all the atavists and institute a final solution.

Understand, though, some of us don't wanna be sedated into goodness; won't be re-educated into bein' good boys and girls; won't be boardin' trains headed for the camps.

Why is this some sort of either/or, or, black and white thinking?

What is good is obviously ONLY what is wanted by every one anyway.

Obviously, any "sedation into goodness", any "re-education into any thing", any "boarding trains headed for anywhere", or any other involuntary behavior is evil in and of itself, and thus NOT good in any way, shape, nor form.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 am I think you're confusing something with instrumental value as having intrinsic value.

I think you're utterly devaluin' yourself.

'nuff said (all yours, Mannie...I just can't slam my head against this particular brick wall anymore).

Age wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:18 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:27 pm
No.

I'm saying its existence, and the present plague which Gary so deplores, is attributable to human action. It would never have existed if (depending on which story one believes) a man had not created it in a lab, or a Chinese person had not eaten something in a wet market in China. Whichever it was, it was somebody's decision that precipitated the present crisis...whether he knew it or not.

It was commies eatin' garbage animals: raw bat brain soup, raw snake intestine tar-tar, pangolin toenail sammiches.

Is this an absolute and irrefutable fact, or just more like what you believe is true?

Several eggheads, at the beginning of the coronapocalypse, surmised the virus jumped species by way of commies eatin' garbage animals, and talkin' heads reported that, then some sensitive souls in the media decided the info was horribly racist and memory-holed it (commies coverin' for commies).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:04 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:52 am I am more than simply my choices. Presumably I could have chosen something different and would still be "me".

So you don't think a universe in which you had free will would be better than one where you didn't?

Is it related to human dignity? Slaves sure think it is.

Slavery is evil. You're the one who wants the option open for people to become enslaved, not me.

Now, now, Gary...play nice. I'm being nice to you.

You know that's not true. I'm just pointing out that the ability to exercise one's free will is highly prized, and is at the root of human dignity. I'm sure you agree.

What "human dignity"?

Just look at the absolute mess human beings have created here on earth.

What actual good have human beings done for earth and for any other species on earth?

Yet adult human beings just want to take from earth and from other animals as much as they can get and profit from, monetarily. So, where is there any dignified behavior in any of this?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:04 am

And as for morality, free will is its sine qua non. "Ought implies can." If you can't choose, then you can't be morally accountable, or a moral agent.

True, no one would go to hell. Would you prefer some people to burn in hell?

My preference isn't at issue, but I'd prefer people to choose better than that, as a matter of fact. However, many people don't think any paradise of any description involves the reduction of its occupants to will-deprived automatons.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:23 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:10 pm
I've heard that. I don't know quite what to believe, though, since fake news is all the rage these days.

There's another theory that it was created in a lab in Canada, then shipped to China, where it was accidentally released. I think that's hokey, but what do I know about it?

Nobody -- least of all the Chinese government -- seems to be at all forthcoming.

Parsimony, when in doubt: simplest explanation is a common virus jumped species, the means of the jump bein' wet market sales.

Is it at all possible that the virus jumped to human beings in any other way than a wet market sale?

Sure.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:31 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:23 pm
Well, whatever the truth is, those wet markets are super nasty, and they shouldn't exist at all. That much we can safely say.

If Fu Manflu coulda stay confined to China, I'd encourage all that garbage-eatin'.

Dead commies are always a plus.

Well that is one truly separate racist view.

A lot of people also believe a dead yankee is a much bigger bonus, and a lot wish for far more 9/11's.

Some also wish if bombs and ammunition could stay in usa, they would encourage there being more mass shootings and explosions.

okay

I know

I know

So, when you are the "bad and mad dog", which is far more often than you believe, is it then okay to just kill you as well? After all, it is actually kinder to end you than fix you. Or, does it not work the other way around?

Quite apart from whether it's okay or not, it's always a possibility that some wad of phlegm will decide to off me (cuz I'm a bad egg, cuz he wants the contents of my wallet, or just because).

It is what it is.


But it is because of autonomy that human beings will live in utopia.

Then go live there. I won't.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:02 am

Age wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:37 am When human beings, themselves, kill millions upon millions of other human beings do people also wonder whether there is a God of evil or not or whether people are evil?

God can't stop them?

God can not stop who?

And, I did ask a very specific question, for clarification, which you did not clarify.

Which "government" are you talking about here?

American (but they all bite).


Would you now be trying to suggest that if this virus started, or the next virus starts, in a country, let us imagine one like usa, then that current government would have it sorted out any quicker?

Nope, I'm sayin' gov is flailin' around, makin' shit worse.


Every government, other than the chinese government, had at least a one or two month warning and head start to prepare for what was coming. So, one could easily then imagine all of those governments would have been far more competent than the first government. But what appears to be the case is not so at all.

Exactly.


Surely a government with a pre-warning of what is coming would be far more competent than one with absolutely no warning at all.

A minimal proxy would do well cuz it would do little. What we got now -- anything but minimal -- trips over itself and wastes money.

What "assembly line"?

It's a metaphor (or analogy, or simile, or somesuch [never could get those straight]. If man is not a free will then man is a robot, a machine and life just an assembly line.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:57 am How exactly does one 'embrace' islam? What do i have to do exactly to 'embrace'?

If you have a wish to embrace Islam, then this is really a great blessing that God, the Almighty is giving you. You should be made aware that no one guides to Islam except Allah, the Almighty. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided. [Quran, interpretation of meaning 28:56]

To enter the fold of Islam you have to say with conviction in your heart and mind the following statement in Arabic:

Statement in English:

• “I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.”

Statement in Arabic transliteration:

• “ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH”.

The above profession of the Islamic faith is called the shahada. If Allah, the Almighty Who hears and sees all things, accepts your shahada, then you will enter the fold of Islam. Allah, the Almighty will then send guidance to you, and when you follow His guidance you will get benefits in this life and also in the life after death. When we make mistakes Allah's forgiveness is always open for us until we leave this world when death comes to us.

You can watch the following short YouTube video (35 seconds) which guides you to pronouncing the shahada correctly step by step. You can then just repeat after the reciter to make it easy for you : https://youtu.be/eCG7Oerxakk

If you are interested, below are a couple of videos where Islamic preacher Yusuf Estes from the USA is helping a man and a woman in the correct Arabic pronunciation of the shahada.
1. Bob takes the shahada: https://youtu.be/MHJ-mTwBiqI (24 seconds)
2. Lucy takes the shahada: https://youtu.be/09I2Wq2iyF0 (5 minutes)

Many people, especially women, get very emotional when taking the shahada, like sister Lucy above. Many new Muslims get a feeling of great relief and happiness when they embrace Islam. I came across a testimony of a sister from Ukraine who embraced Islam from Christianity and her testimony can be enlightening if you are interested: https://youtu.be/sd3GfGnHFsk (3 minutes)

If 'islam' means peace, and, 'muslim' means follower of islam/peace, (which I say they do) then EVERY one is born a 'muslim', and naturally embraces/wants peace.

But what you have written here is just religious teachings entrenched into you, which deflect away from our natural tendencies to want and follow peace. Following some human made up teachings is NOT what is conducive to peace, nor to harmony.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm

Age wrote: And what purpose would that fulfill?

When a person becomes a Muslim, he/she will get guidance from Allah, the Almighty and peace when he/she follows His guidance.

Why do so called "muslms" say Allah/God will only guide them when they become a "muslim", and, why do "christians" say God/Allah will only guide them when they become a "christian"?

God/Allah is guiding EVERY one ALWAYS, no matter what any one calls them "self".

EVERY new born human follows Allah/God far more than any adult human does, no matter if they call themselves a "christian", "muslim", or any thing "else".

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm When someone enters the fold of Islam from being previously a non-Muslim, all his/her previous sins are not only forgiven but all those sins are converted into good deeds as well! So if you were to embrace Islam today, you get a clean slate like that of a new born baby, i.e. without any sin whatsoever.

Why are "muslims" beliefs so closely related to "christians" beliefs, yet for thousands of years now so called "muslims" and "christians" have been and are still killing each other?

Human beings killing each other over the exact same thing God/Allah beyond being about the most ridiculous thing imaginable is also the most funniest thing to watch and observe. The more I delve into this the only thing that is really disagreed upon is the name of the exact same 'thing'.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm In such a state of purity then, for example, if you were to ask Allah for something good, then there are very high chances in your favor that He may grant you.

The ONLY 'good' thing one could ask for is; What can I do to make life peaceful and harmonious for EVERY one? Just about everything else asked for is only for one's own self, and a select few others, which is obviously NOT 'good' at all.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm You may also chose to ask Allah something good for me as well, and it will be greatly appreciated!

Why do I not just do something good for you, ALWAYS?

Asking some thing/some one else to do what I can just do "my self", is just a cop out for not already doing it.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm On judgement day, if you die as a Muslim, you will have a lot of favors from Allah, the Almighty.

This is exactly what the so called "christians" say as well.

Yet "christians" nor "muslims" can elaborate on this and explain what this actually means. Unless of course you can and will prove me wrong now?

By the way, what thee actual Truly meaning of what you wrote is NOTHING like what 'you' "muslims" and "christians" alike think it means.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm One of the great favors is that you will be eligible to benefit from the intersession of the blessed Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) on Judgement Day. There is a lot of advantages in Islam, there are just too many to enumerate all of them.

So, 'you' are tricked into believing, wanting, and doing things with the exact same promises as "christians" are tricked into believing, wanting, and doing as well.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm I have embraced Islam about 15-16 years ago, and each day Allah, the Almighty sends something good in one form or another. There is also this direct connection with Allah, the Almighty that is one of the great gifts of embracing Islam, i.e. no intermediaries. When we need something in Islam, we ask Allah, the Almighty directly. Allah, the Most Merciful makes it easy, so you don’t have to worry if you are seriously thinking about embracing Islam now. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

This is no different at all in what "christians" say also.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm

• And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. [It is] the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you “Muslims” before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper. [Quran, interpretation of meaning, 22:78]

Age wrote: The Almighty One is NOT a "he".

The Arabic word “Allah” which is the name of God, the Almighty in Arabic is a gender neutral name, which means it is neither masculine nor feminine. So, when the pronoun “he” (Huwa in Arabic) is used to refer to Allah, the Almighty, it is not meant to convey gender information. In this specific usage, the pronoun “he” is often capitalized in English when referring to the Almighty.

'you', just like "christians", just 'try to' "justify" calling Allah/God a "he" BUT God is NOT a "he" at all, and when you ALL stop using this separatist term, then you might start looking at what thee actual Truth IS instead.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm

Age wrote: The Almighty One ONLY 'accepts' repentance when you STOP doing wrong things.

Indeed, in Islam refraining from the sin is one of the conditions for an accepted repentance. There are three conditions for repentance to be accepted in Islam, they are:

1. One should give up the sin
2. One should regret having done it
3. One should resolve never to go back to it.

If all these conditions are fulfilled when repenting to Allah, then the repentance is accepted. If the person were to fall into the same sin again in the future, then the door of repentance to Allah is still open and it will remain open until the soul leaves the body at death.

If, and when, my writings, in this forum, are read, then what can be seen is how your 1, 2, and 3 here can be actually done.

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm

Age wrote: By the way, what is a so called "good death" to you?

Dying as a Muslim in a state/condition that is pleasing to Allah, the Almighty. For example, like the death of prophet David(pbuh). When the Angel of Death came to Prophet David(pbuh), the latter welcomed him, and was ready to die on the spot. Or like the future death of Angel Gabriel (pbuh), who will die in prostration to Allah, the Almighty. These are the deaths that I aspire to, and I always ask Allah, the Most Merciful in my prayers for a good death and not a shameful return.
You may now be asking, what is a shameful return for me? If that be so, then examples of shameful deaths in my judgement are: the death of Pharaoh, the death of Nimrod, and the future death of Satan, the cursed, among others. And I ask Allah, the Almighty to preserve me, the Muslims and my loved ones from such deaths.

Why do you separate, and select, only some human beings to be preserved?

Is 'your' Allah the exact same as "christians" God, in that you and "christians" actually believe that your's/their God/Allah will only help the ones that you or them want helped?

Have you or "christians" never considered that Allah/God does NOT care one iota about any one of 'you' over another one?

Have any of you ever thought that God loves and cares for ALL of 'you' in the exact same way, shape, and form, no matter what anyone of you assumes or believes?

Averroes wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:43 pm You have asked very good questions, I thank you for having put these to me. I am not an Islamic scholar but I did my best to try to answer your questions, and I hope you find the answers useful.

I thank you also, for at least trying to answer my questions. Most do not even notice them, or will not even consider them when reading them, let alone even trying to answer them.

By the way, I had no wish to "embrace" islam, I have always been and always am a natural follower of peace, but, just to let you know, you making the mistake of assuming what I am actually asking, and/or assuming what, or why, I am asking what I am detracts you away from the very simple, purely OPEN, clarifying questions, themselves, that I just ask.