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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:26 pm
by henry quirk
If the conditions are condusive, anything is possible. Human knowledge of conditions is limited, which has been empirically proven by the creation of devices that enhance sensory perception so that what was not perceived can now be perceived.
These devices have been created, although as potentiality they have always existed, and eventually they manifested as a collection of parts interacting with systems, but only when the appropriate conditions came into combination. No sooner. One of those conditions is man with his clever opposable thumbs that allow construction of devices.
Yeah, I'm sorry but I got no clue what you're talkin' about here.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:54 pm
by Walker
Examples: Telescope, microscope, reading glasses. Sound amplification.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 3:55 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Walker wrote:For a moment set aside imaginings how you, with your limitations, would go about failing to create the universe, and then suspend the usual habit of projecting your imagination upon some concept that you insist on effing into being, and consider:
The chair does not exist.
Then the chair exists.
What happens in between? (Besides your trip to Maplins to buy the chair.)
Answer: the chair is created.
Now, do you have anything of significance to say about that other than aimless questions?
If the universe is not in existence then you are not in a position of existence to create it. Are you mad?
As for your questions. I do not live in a world in which chairs and other objects simply pop into existence. I have made things, and you need to gather existing materials to transform them. In the case of a chair this is often wood. But there is not example where something comes from nothing.
Maybe you should start with something easy?
Make something! First try to make sense.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:09 pm
by Walker
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Walker wrote:For a moment set aside imaginings how you, with your limitations, would go about failing to create the universe, and then suspend the usual habit of projecting your imagination upon some concept that you insist on effing into being, and consider:
The chair does not exist.
Then the chair exists.
What happens in between? (Besides your trip to Maplins to buy the chair.)
Answer: the chair is created.
Now, do you have anything of significance to say about that other than aimless questions?
If the universe is not in existence then you are not in a position of existence to create it. Are you mad?
As for your questions. I do not live in a world in which chairs and other objects simply pop into existence. I have made things, and you need to gather existing materials to transform them. In the case of a chair this is often wood. But there is not example where something comes from nothing.
Maybe you should start with something easy?
Make something! First try to make sense.
You make excellent points, Hobbes, especially about making things, and that things don't pop into existence. This is why if something has not always existed, it is created. The creation may take a long time, may be identified as a process of transformation when man has his thumbs in it, creation identified as evolution for other things. Until man can say how the universe of source material for transformation comes into being, man cannot speak for the method of orgin due to limitations of incarnation and ignorance. However creation is, no getting around that.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:15 pm
by Walker
Walker wrote:Hobbes' Choice wrote:Walker wrote:For a moment set aside imaginings how you, with your limitations, would go about failing to create the universe, and then suspend the usual habit of projecting your imagination upon some concept that you insist on effing into being, and consider:
The chair does not exist.
Then the chair exists.
What happens in between? (Besides your trip to Maplins to buy the chair.)
Answer: the chair is created.
Now, do you have anything of significance to say about that other than aimless questions?
If the universe is not in existence then you are not in a position of existence to create it. Are you mad?
As for your questions. I do not live in a world in which chairs and other objects simply pop into existence. I have made things, and you need to gather existing materials to transform them. In the case of a chair this is often wood. But there is not example where something comes from nothing.
Maybe you should start with something easy?
Make something! First try to make sense.
You make excellent points, Hobbes, especially about making things, and that things don't pop into existence. This is why if something has not always existed, it is created. The creation may take a long time, may be identified as a process of transformation when man has his thumbs in it, creation identified as evolution for other things. Until man can say how the universe of source material for transformation comes into being, man cannot speak for the method of orgin due to limitations of incarnation and ignorance. However creation is, no getting around that, unless what you perceive has always existed.
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:24 pm
by henry quirk
"Examples: Telescope, microscope, reading glasses. Sound amplification."
Okay...now, what does that have to do with 'An eternal Beginner is nonsensical: an eternal universe is nonsensical, so you gotta go with number three/fill in the blank/other.'?
Re:
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:33 pm
by Walker
henry quirk wrote:"Examples: Telescope, microscope, reading glasses. Sound amplification."
Okay...now, what does that have to do with 'An eternal Beginner is nonsensical: an eternal universe is nonsensical, so you gotta go with number three/fill in the blank/other.'?
It is possible for anything to exist, given the right conditions. Even "an eternal Beginner," however you define it.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:15 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Walker wrote:
You make excellent points, Hobbes, especially about making things, and that things don't pop into existence. This is why if something has not always existed, it is created. The creation may take a long time, may be identified as a process of transformation when man has his thumbs in it, creation identified as evolution for other things. Until man can say how the universe of source material for transformation comes into being, man cannot speak for the method of orgin due to limitations of incarnation and ignorance. However creation is, no getting around that.
You are missing the key point that creating things, does not come from nothing. And that the rules of making things does not apply to existence itself, as without that there is nothing from which to make existence.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:54 pm
by Arising_uk
Walker wrote:Where did this idea come from?
Kant.
Was it created, or has it always existed?
No idea, its the Noumenon.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:18 pm
by marjoram_blues
Arising_uk wrote:Walker wrote:Where did this idea come from?
Kant.
Was it created, or has it always existed?
No idea, its the Noumenon.
Is there a Noumenon song? Every time I say 'noomininon' I want to add 'doo-doo de diddle-eh'.
It's driving me crazy...
Damn, it's because I'm saying it wrong!
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:08 pm
by Nick_A
Arising asks: Was this 'creator' inside or outside of 'its' 'creation' when it 'created' it?
Obviously both. What else is possible?
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:21 pm
by uwot
Nick_A wrote:Arising asks: Was this 'creator' inside or outside of 'its' 'creation' when it 'created' it?
Obviously both. What else is possible?
Well, if you ask the vast majority of mainstream theists of any denomination, they will tell you that god and the universe are two distinct substances and god created the universe ex nihilo.
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:44 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Nick_A wrote:Arising asks: Was this 'creator' inside or outside of 'its' 'creation' when it 'created' it?
Obviously both. What else is possible?
.. that you are talking nonsense?
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:44 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
uwot wrote:Nick_A wrote:Arising asks: Was this 'creator' inside or outside of 'its' 'creation' when it 'created' it?
Obviously both. What else is possible?
Well, if you ask the vast majority of mainstream theists of any denomination, they will tell you that god and the universe are two distinct substances and god created the universe ex nihilo.
And they would know how?
Re: Who Really is an Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:59 pm
by uwot
Hobbes' Choice wrote:And they would know how?
What does knowledge have to do with it?