Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 5:27 pm Here is what my answer is, Immanuel:

I certainly know that, following the Genesis story, that it is believed that the world, then, operated under different laws. And I also know that traditional Christians believe that as a consequence of The Fall not only was man’s destiny screwed up, but the entire Creation fell. And the world, consequently, became the place it now is.

Then your question is nonsensical. You’re asking how Christians give their account for things they don’t believe happened the way you claim they did.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:31 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 5:27 pm Here is what my answer is, Immanuel:

I certainly know that, following the Genesis story, that it is believed that the world, then, operated under different laws. And I also know that traditional Christians believe that as a consequence of The Fall not only was man’s destiny screwed up, but the entire Creation fell. And the world, consequently, became the place it now is.

Now, the really curious thing is that you believe this is a factual story — it must be a scientific fact — about how the natural world that surround us came to be as it is.

That a wolf chases and devours a rabbit is just one result of our First Parent’s disobedience.

How is it that you do not think I know this?!

We used to play for silver, now we play for life; And one's for sport and one's for blood at the point of a knife. And now the die is shaken, now the die must fall. There ain't a winner in the game, he don't go home with all. Not with all …

Instruct me, for thou knows: how to become free!

God punishes us all for the mistake of 2 people. What a lovely God. Then floods the world killing almost everyone. Tells his chosen people to commit genocide. I'm sure it's all factual.

How particular. No wonder we need the scandal of it for it. The only way to divest oneself of this sick madness is to Foe the source.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:31 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:27 pm The only way to divest oneself of this sick madness is to Foe the source.

How interesting: I couln’t have put it better myself.

The only way to get rid of the knowledge of God is to make a foe of Him. And people wonder how anybody ends up in an eternity without God….

They choose it. C.S. Lewis was right. Everybody who is lost has chosen to be lost.

Theists have an advantage over atheists; they have the ability, by no other means than belief, to extend their mortal lives into some god zone of eternity based on nothing more than mere hope and illusion...a time-based creature, along with everything else, pathetically desperate for an earned immortality purchased by a self-imposed act of belief.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:24 am Theists have an advantage over atheists;

Oh, so many, so many…

Starting with the fact that their belief is at least internally consistent…how Atheists would love to have that one!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:26 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:24 am Theists have an advantage over atheists;

Oh, so many, so many…

Starting with the fact that their belief is at least internally consistent…how Atheists would love to have that one!

Nature is consistent; it doesn't offer the option of eternity because you believed in Jesus!

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:26 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:24 am Theists have an advantage over atheists;

Oh, so many, so many…

Starting with the fact that their belief is at least internally consistent…how Atheists would love to have that one!

Nature is consistent

Really? Well, you’re in trouble for that theory. You must still be believing in an eternal universe, and not believing in time or the Laws of Thermodynamics, or in mathematics.

But then, if you’re “dubious” of truth, you can be dubious in many different areas…with dubious conclusions, of course.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:35 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:26 am
Oh, so many, so many…

Starting with the fact that their belief is at least internally consistent…how Atheists would love to have that one!

Nature is consistent

Really? Well, you’re in trouble for that theory. You must still be believing in an eternal universe, and not believing in time or the Laws of Thermodynamics, or in mathematics.

But then, if you’re “dubious” of truth, you can be dubious in many different areas…with dubious conclusions, of course.

What does the bible know of thermodynamics and where did I say I believed in an eternal universe?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:50 pm Then your question is nonsensical. You’re asking how Christians give their account for things they don’t believe happened the way you claim they did.

You do not, I repeat: YOU DO NOT BELIEVE this story of how the world, the Cosmos, Nature, came to be as it is.

Belief in this sense (this is my theory) has a unique function. It pretends to “answer a question” and thus to settle a matter, but in fact it is an obscuration. It is convenient however.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:53 pm The only way to get rid of the knowledge of God is to make a foe of Him. And people wonder how anybody ends up in an eternity without God….

Tricky! Very tricky! This is where your apologetics turns devious.

First, nothing I say now or have ever said could negate the notion of God or divinity. Creation, existence, being, intelligence: follow these back and (in my view) they necessitate a Being out of which all arises.

If Alexis Jacobi — he who is known to ride on a fabulous Flying Carpet up to and beyond the realm of Platonic Forms — is to make a foe of anyone, it is not really a “someone” but rather a tendency, perhaps borne of temperament, that traps a person in a dogma (such as the Fall and man’s disobedience radiating out and polluting the entire Universe is a dogma)(which you do not truly believe).

Why people resist you, dear Immanuel, always escapes you. By “you” I mean this tendency I describe, which is so very strong in you. This is not really personal, it just seems that way.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:38 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:35 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:33 am

Nature is consistent

Really? Well, you’re in trouble for that theory. You must still be believing in an eternal universe, and not believing in time or the Laws of Thermodynamics, or in mathematics.

But then, if you’re “dubious” of truth, you can be dubious in many different areas…with dubious conclusions, of course.

What does the bible know of thermodynamics and where did I say I believed in an eternal universe?

Well, without belief in a perpetual, self-regenerating universe, you can’t argue “Nature is consistent.” Manifestly, scientifically, we know she’s not. But if we ignore science, and thus believe in such a universe, we could actually believe that this “Nature” thing of yours never changes. It’s the only way.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:41 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:50 pm Then your question is nonsensical. You’re asking how Christians give their account for things they don’t believe happened the way you claim they did.

You do not, I repeat: YOU DO NOT BELIEVE this story of how the world, the Cosmos, Nature, came to be as it is.

I don’t believe your story. I do believe what the Bible says about how the world came to be fallen. If you imagine otherwise, I’m sorry…but you’re just dead wrong. (It won’t be the first time. By now, you’ll be getting used to being wrong, I suppose.)

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 12:56 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:53 pm The only way to get rid of the knowledge of God is to make a foe of Him. And people wonder how anybody ends up in an eternity without God….

Tricky! Very tricky! This is where your apologetics turns devious.

First, nothing I say now or have ever said...

You should maybe read headings. I wasn’t talking to you. You might have saved yourself a lot of empty typing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:53 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:31 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:27 pm The only way to divest oneself of this sick madness is to Foe the source.

How interesting: I couln’t have put it better myself.

The only way to get rid of the knowledge of God is to make a foe of Him. And people wonder how anybody ends up in an eternity without God….

They choose it. C.S. Lewis was right. Everybody who is lost has chosen to be lost.

No, everyone who is lost is a victim of circumstances. Any man can be misled by a clever exploiter . If a man does not know that danger then good people should tell him of it, for his own safety and the safety of others.

For instance, think of the millions of Germans who were exploited by Hitler and his Nazis. The German people who said after 1945 ,that they did not know what was going on chose not to know because at the time they were deliberately misled.

There is always cause for men to choose what they choose.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:27 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:31 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 5:27 pm Here is what my answer is, Immanuel:

I certainly know that, following the Genesis story, that it is believed that the world, then, operated under different laws. And I also know that traditional Christians believe that as a consequence of The Fall not only was man’s destiny screwed up, but the entire Creation fell. And the world, consequently, became the place it now is.

Now, the really curious thing is that you believe this is a factual story — it must be a scientific fact — about how the natural world that surround us came to be as it is.

That a wolf chases and devours a rabbit is just one result of our First Parent’s disobedience.

How is it that you do not think I know this?!



Instruct me, for thou knows: how to become free!

God punishes us all for the mistake of 2 people. What a lovely God. Then floods the world killing almost everyone. Tells his chosen people to commit genocide. I'm sure it's all factual.

How particular. No wonder we need the scandal of it for it. The only way to divest oneself of this sick madness is to Foe the source.

It's not the only way. You could treat each narrative as a pericope, a cut-around, and 'like,' as in tick ,only those stories that help you and your children. You seem to be a free spirit.
This how you evaluate other literature.