Christianity

[Belinda]

"Few if any measure up to the life and work of JC"

Lol, that guy's life was a walk in the park, and I've seen nothing easier than being a christian.

I wonder if your sardonic comment will hit the mark you intended.

[Greatest I am]

The messianic concept and Armageddon are more academic theological studies;

Not to Christians. Even if true, yjey are still immoral concepts.

Go you judge the genocidal Gods with being good?

Genocidal gods are not good they are evil. The God of Judeo-Christianity is a compassionate god of love and has nothing to do with racism or nationalism.To understand what love is read 1 Corinthians 13

You say that genocidal Gods are not good, then you promote Yahweh, a G D genocidal God, as compassionate.

I thought you were one of the sane and moral ones. Oh well.

[promethean75]

That's not fair, Belinda. You know i believe as a post-left anarchist that the virtues espoused by one Jesus H. Christ are counterproductive to the emancipation of the working classes from the bourgeois property owning class.

In a perfect world, sure, love your neighbors and do unto others... but this ain't the perfect world, pal. Far from it. There's work to be done, and turning cheeks or going quietly to a Roman cross is not included in that.

[seeds]

Again, if you can go down the list here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...and still praise the Lord?

What is it about this...

Well, the fact of the matter is that just as we were not meant to stay within our mother's womb forever, likewise, we are not meant to stay in this universe (in God's "cosmic womb") forever.

...that you don't understand???

Now it's needless to say that you're in no way obligated to accept my take on God,...

...however, from my personal perspective, your list simply shows a few of the myriad ways by which the human soul is "born-out" of these temporary bodies (out of God's "cosmic womb") and into the higher dimension of reality where our true form and eternal purpose will finally be revealed to us.

And if you're looking for a quick and easy birth into "true reality," you always have the option of using an overdose of morphine or something similar in order to make your "second" and final birth a painless experience.

Now I don't know what your backstory is, but you seem to be the classic example of the type of atheist that Einstein was referring to when he allegedly made the following statement...

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who–in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’– cannot hear the music of the spheres.”

Based on past encounters with you, I realize that it is an exercise in futility to ask you the following question, however,...

...when are you ever going to stop fixating on the idiotic notions about God that have been handed down to us from ancient boneheads who believed that if you walked too far in one direction, you would fall off the edge of the earth?

In other words, if it is indeed possible that a Creator of the unfathomable order of this universe truly does exist,...

...then you need to "wake-up" to the fact that it's probably safe to assume that a Being of such incomprehensible power and intelligence, probably "knows" what it's doing when it comes to wisely managing the inner-workings of this universe.
_______

[iambiguous]

Again, if you can go down the list here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...and still praise the Lord?

What is it about this...

Well, the fact of the matter is that just as we were not meant to stay within our mother's womb forever, likewise, we are not meant to stay in this universe (in God's "cosmic womb") forever.

...that you don't understand???

More to the point, try imagining yourself going from one act of God to the next, from one terrible natural disaster to the next explaining the above to all the victims. On the other hand, given that the alternative is a No God universe in which there is no ultimate meaning and purpose for human suffering...? Sure, any number of folks will stick with God [any God] given that alternative.

Again, I know I would if I could.

Besides, in my view, you assert the above is true but this seems to be predicated almost entirely on the fact that's merely what you do believe "in your head" is true. As though that need be as far as it goes in order to make it true.

And, in that sense, it encompasses the mentality that any number of other true believers embrace: a God, the god, my God.

Not yours in other words.

Now it's needless to say that you're in no way obligated to accept my take on God,...

Well, if one truly did believe that objective morality, immortality and salvation were on the line, one would either present evidence to sustain this belief or they take a more or less blind leap of faith. And then those here who basically define and deduce God into existence up on one or another spiritual cloud.

...however, from my personal perspective, your list simply shows a few of the myriad ways by which the human soul is "born-out" of these temporary bodies (out of God's "cosmic womb") and into the higher dimension of reality where our true form and eternal purpose will finally be revealed to us.

Again, why a "higher dimension of reality" derived from your "take" on God when many here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...have their own secular dogmas in turn. Not your God, not their God. No God at all.

Also, you simply state what you do above about "the myriad ways by which the human soul is "born-out" of these temporary bodies" without a shred of substantiation.

And if you're looking for a quick and easy birth into "true reality," you always have the option of using an overdose of morphine or something similar in order to make your "second" and final birth a painless experience.

Sure, that option is available. But it doesn't make my points above go away for those who choose not to. And it doesn't make your own assessment of God any different from all the others who fall back on faith or make their wager. And they do this, in my view, because not a single God has ever been shown to exist other than through a leap of faith, a wager or one or another Scripture.

That's why those like IC come off [to me] as ridiculous. He goes well beyond a leap of faith by insisting there is substantive and substantial historical and scientific available to those who wish to be saved. But then he won't go there in order to explore this more in depth.

[By the way, anyone here not sure if they are a True Christian? Just run your beliefs by IC and find out. Then get back to us.]

Now I don't know what your backstory is, but you seem to be the classic example of the type of atheist that Einstein was referring to when he allegedly made the following statement...

“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who–in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’– cannot hear the music of the spheres.”

Okay, connect the dots between music of the spheres -- "the natural harmonic tones supposedly produced by the movement of the celestial spheres or the bodies fixed in them." -- and your own moral convictions here and now and what you believe your fate will be there and then after you are dead and gone.

Unless that's in refernce to...Coldplay?

Based on past encounters with you, I realize that it is an exercise in futility to ask you the following question, however,...

...when are you ever going to stop fixating on the idiotic notions about God that have been handed down to us from ancient boneheads who believed that if you walked too far in one direction, you would fall off the edge of the earth?

Huh? The fact is that back then it might have made sense to think the Earth is flat. On the other hand: Eratosthenes: https://youtu.be/G8cbIWMv0rI?si=_6GUHRXLLc7MHtvs

Science let's call it.

On the other hand, beliefs about the Earth are one thing, beliefs about God and religion another thing altogether. See if you can figure out why.

In other words, if it is indeed possible that a Creator of the unfathomable order of this universe truly does exist,...

Over and again here I've acknolwedged that a God, the God is one possible explanation for the existence of existence itself. Whatever that might possibly mean given, among other things...

". . . there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”

...then you need to "wake-up" to the fact that it's probably safe to assume that a Being of such incomprehensible power and intelligence, probably "knows" what it's doing when it comes to wisely managing the inner-workings of this universe.

So, if and when a God, the God chooses to reveal himself, He'll be able to explain why this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _disorders

...reflects Divine Wisdom?

Also, this part: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 2015to2022

God's very own abortions?

[attofishpi]

"Few if any measure up to the life and work of JC"

Lol, that guy's life was a walk in the park, and I've seen nothing easier than being a christian.

I wonder if your sardonic comment will hit the mark you intended.

Imagine spending your entire life from a child onwards (*and prior to that) knowing that one day you are going to endure what Jesus the Christ endured as per the radiated information embedded upon the shroud of Turin displays.


Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s

[Belinda]

That's not fair, Belinda. You know i believe as a post-left anarchist that the virtues espoused by one Jesus H. Christ are counterproductive to the emancipation of the working classes from the bourgeois property owning class.

In a perfect world, sure, love your neighbors and do unto others... but this ain't the perfect world, pal. Far from it. There's work to be done, and turning cheeks or going quietly to a Roman cross is not included in that.

The usual complaint about Judeo- Christianity is it glorifies poverty. The rich man has little chance of entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

I think I know what you mean. You think Jesus was a martyr for the sake of being a martyr. But Jesus was a willing sacrifice not because he was a masochist but because he well knew the political power , in his case the Roman conquerors of Palestine, would not tolerate a Jewish 'king'.

For a close parallel to the case of Jesus see Socrates. Socrates sacrificed his life as an Athenian for much the same reason as did Jesus as a Palestinian.Neither man would deny his principles to save his life.

Your hostility to Jesus is because Christianity is politicised and pretty well always was. Forget trivialities such as the Shroud of Turin. Jesus engaged with real life, as did Socrates.

What use is anarchy. There will always be a ruling power in every society. Your responsibility is to choose where your political allegiance is best laid at.

[seeds]

Again, if you can go down the list here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...and still praise the Lord?

What is it about this...

Well, the fact of the matter is that just as we were not meant to stay within our mother's womb forever, likewise, we are not meant to stay in this universe (in God's "cosmic womb") forever.

...that you don't understand???

More to the point, try imagining yourself going from one act of God to the next, from one terrible natural disaster to the next explaining the above to all the victims. On the other hand, given that the alternative is a No God universe in which there is no ultimate meaning and purpose for human suffering...? Sure, any number of folks will stick with God [any God] given that alternative.

Again, I know I would if I could.

Besides, in my view, you assert the above is true but this seems to be predicated almost entirely on the fact that's merely what you do believe "in your head" is true. As though that need be as far as it goes in order to make it true.

Again, you are not obligated to accept or believe any of this, but my assertions are based on what was imparted to me in what I believe was a direct encounter with God, almost 55 years ago.

All of which was painstakingly described in my thread titled:

My "Burning Bush-like" encounter with God.

viewtopic.php?t=41452

Well, if one truly did believe that objective morality, immortality and salvation were on the line,...

Based on what was imparted to me in my "alleged" encounter with God, there is absolutely nothing "on the line" here.

In other words, regardless of what any of the "old paradigm" religions have to say about our situation, the truth is that no matter who you are, what you've done, what age you are when you die, or what you believed in while you were on earth,...

(be it theist of any stripe, atheist, satanist, agnostic, or anything else whatsoever)

...what awaits each of us after crossing the threshold of death will not only be equal and perfect for every human ever awakened into existence....

...but will also be wonderful* beyond our wildest dreams.

*(Which is why it must be kept hidden from us.)

Are you completely incapable of realizing (or at least entertaining the possibility) that just as our comprehension of the physical sciences and cosmology evolves in such a way as to allow us to reach new (and higher) levels of understanding regarding the material domain,...

...that, likewise, the same applies to the evolution of our understanding of the spiritual domain?

Again, I implore you to take heed of what I said earlier...

...if it is indeed possible that a Creator of the unfathomable order of this universe truly does exist,...

...then you need to "wake-up" to the fact that it's probably safe to assume that a Being of such incomprehensible power and intelligence, probably "knows" what it's doing when it comes to wisely managing the inner-workings of this universe.

And thus, there no doubt are "logical and purposeful reasons" for why all of this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...has been incorporated into the makeup of the world.
_______

[Alexis Jacobi]

An interview with Iain McGilchrist touching on the functions of the hemispheres of the brain.

I give it a chef’s kiss …

[iambiguous]

Besides, in my view, you assert the above is true but this seems to be predicated almost entirely on the fact that's merely what you do believe "in your head" is true. As though that need be as far as it goes in order to make it true.

Again, you are not obligated to accept or believe any of this, but my assertions are based on what was imparted to me in what I believe was a direct encounter with God, almost 55 years ago.

All of which was painstakingly described in my thread titled:

My "Burning Bush-like" encounter with God.

Now, why do I suspect that any number of folks here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

...can relate their very own personal experiences with God. Only it's their God not yours.

Really, what evidence do you have other than your "story"?

Now, let's get back to this part:

More to the point, try imagining yourself going from one act of God to the next, from one terrible natural disaster to the next explaining the above to all the victims. On the other hand, given that the alternative is a No God universe in which there is no ultimate meaning and purpose for human suffering...? Sure, any number of folks will stick with God [any God] given that alternative.

Well, if one truly did believe that objective morality, immortality and salvation were on the line, one would either present evidence to sustain this belief or they take a more or less blind leap of faith. And then those here who basically define and deduce God into existence up on one or another spiritual cloud.

Based on what was imparted to me in my "alleged" encounter with God, there is absolutely nothing "on the line" here.

Hold it. Let's back up...

I read very little of what you post here, so I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing about in regard God and religion. You seem to interwine Jesus Christ in some sort of pantheistic assessment of Christianity.

Though, sure, I may simply be misunderstanding your points. Either that or, I suspect in turn, it's a "condition". That's why over and again I bring up the four factors -- demonstable proof, the other religious dogmas, dasein and theodicy.

Now, IC argues here that unless one accepts Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior, their soul is damned. Or at the very least they are denied access to salvation...to God in Heaven.

How about you? If, say, Maia goes to the grave as a Pagan...? Is her soul doomed?

Instead, you post things like this:

...what awaits each of us after crossing the threshold of death will not only be equal and perfect for every human ever awakened into existence....

...but will also be wonderful* beyond our wildest dreams.

...as though others will readily understand how this is pertinent to their own demise!

Or this...

Are you completely incapable of realizing (or at least entertaining the possibility) that just as our comprehension of the physical sciences and cosmology evolves in such a way as to allow us to reach new (and higher) levels of understanding regarding the material domain,...

...that, likewise, the same applies to the evolution of our understanding of the spiritual domain?

Again, what on Earth does that mean pertaining to 1] objective morality, 2] immortality and 3] salvation. After all, rhese are by far the main ingredients in most religious convictions.

And if you're looking for a quick and easy birth into "true reality," you always have the option of using an overdose of morphine or something similar in order to make your "second" and final birth a painless experience.

Sure, that option is available. But it doesn't make my points above go away for those who choose not to. And it doesn't make your own assessment of God any different from all the others who fall back on faith or make their wager. And they do this, in my view, because not a single God has ever been shown to exist other than through a leap of faith, a wager or one or another Scripture.

That's why those like IC come off [to me] as ridiculous. He goes well beyond a leap of faith by insisting there is substantive and substantial historical and scientific available to those who wish to be saved. But then he won't go there in order to explore this more in depth.

[By the way, anyone here not sure if they are a True Christian? Just run your beliefs by IC and find out. Then get back to us.][/b]

Again, I implore you to take heed of what I said earlier...

...if it is indeed possible that a Creator of the unfathomable order of this universe truly does exist,...

...then you need to "wake-up" to the fact that it's probably safe to assume that a Being of such incomprehensible power and intelligence, probably "knows" what it's doing when it comes to wisely managing the inner-workings of this universe.

And thus, there no doubt are "logical and purposeful reasons" for why all of this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...has been incorporated into the makeup of the world.

In other words, God works in mysterious ways. He sure does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _disorders

And, besides, it must be true because you believe it is.

[Belinda]

Is it that Seeds's preoccupation with " the spiritual domain" makes her oblivious to the idea that there exists no "spiritual domain"?

Seeds perhaps believes that there is a spiritual/mental substance that is separable from , and can exist independently of, physical/bodily substance.

I believe and trust Seeds had a "burning bush" encounter. I know what it feels like to have a temporary, blessed, and ephemeral encounter with a changed mood towards my entire environment. At a guess, I say the difference between Seeds and me is that Seeds was primed to believe the encounter was God's intervention, and I was primed to believe the encounter was a spontaneous fluctuation of my brain chemistry.

In each case the encounter was blessed with the knowledge that there is an alternative consciousness that is in some way better than ordinary everyday consciousness. Neither Seeds nor I deliberately induced the blessed mood with drugs or meditation and we each have good memories. I reckon Seeds remembers the exact place where her encounter happened!

[seeds]

Based on what was imparted to me in my "alleged" encounter with God, there is absolutely nothing "on the line" here.

Hold it. Let's back up...

I read very little of what you post here, so I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing about in regard God and religion. You seem to interwine Jesus Christ in some sort of pantheistic assessment of Christianity.

Though, sure, I may simply be misunderstanding your points...

There's no "may" about it, for you have demonstrated that you haven't the slightest understanding of where I'm coming from.

I mean, where in the world did you come across the ridiculous notion that I "...interwine Jesus Christ in some sort of pantheistic assessment of Christianity..."???

...Either that or, I suspect in turn, it's a "condition". That's why over and again I bring up the four factors -- demonstable proof, the other religious dogmas, dasein and theodicy.

Well, the fact that, by your own admission, you have read "...very little..." of what I have written here over the last (almost) 9 years,...

...it is, therefore, no wonder that you have no idea of how wrong you are regarding my stance on "...demonstable proof, the other religious dogmas, and theodicy..."

Which is incredible to me, seeing how I have gone to great lengths in past encounters with you to point out the problems that might arise if any sort of "demonstrable proof" of the existence of God or that of our lives continuing on after death, was made available to us.

Now, IC argues here that unless one accepts Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior, their soul is damned. Or at the very least they are denied access to salvation...to God in Heaven.

How about you? If, say, Maia goes to the grave as a Pagan...? Is her soul doomed?

Seriously?

You ask "...what about you..." when it comes to my assessment of the destiny of Maia's soul?

Well, you did say that you read "...very little..." of what I write.

Or, if you do manage to at least "skim-over" what I write to you in our little exchanges, it is glaringly obvious that you pay absolutely no attention to what I am saying.

Good grief, man, how could you possibly read the following,...

In other words, regardless of what any of the "old paradigm" religions have to say about our situation, the truth is that no matter who you are, what you've done, what age you are when you die, or what you believed in while you were on earth,...

(be it theist of any stripe, atheist, satanist, agnostic, or anything else whatsoever)

...what awaits each of us after crossing the threshold of death will not only be equal and perfect for every human ever awakened into existence....

...but will also be wonderful* beyond our wildest dreams.

...and not conclude from that quote that I believe that Maia's sweet and beautiful soul is not only forever "safe" and "loved,"...

...but also...

(again, as was imparted to me in my "alleged" encounter with God)

...is in possession of a glorious and eternally fruitful purpose as a family member of the "highest species of being" in all of reality -- (the same species of being as God).

Are you completely incapable of realizing (or at least entertaining the possibility) that just as our comprehension of the physical sciences and cosmology evolves in such a way as to allow us to reach new (and higher) levels of understanding regarding the material domain,...

...that, likewise, the same applies to the evolution of our understanding of the spiritual domain?

Again, what on Earth does that mean pertaining to 1] objective morality, 2] immortality and 3] salvation. After all, rhese are by far the main ingredients in most religious convictions.

It relates to something I posted in this very thread, two and a half years ago...

I have often portrayed the ascension of modern science (i.e., quantum physics, astrophysics, etc.) in the metaphorical terms of being like a "frantically flapping butterfly wing" that is in desperate need of the symmetry of its other wing (spirituality), which is still stuck in the "chrysalis" of archaic beliefs.

And what that means is that you need to stop thinking that the views on...

"...1] objective morality, 2] immortality and 3] salvation..."

...that those "archaic" belief systems hold and promote, are infallibly accurate and thus cannot be improved upon in the same way our understanding of the material domain has been (and continues to be) improved upon.
_______

[iambiguous]

There's no "may" about it, for you have demonstrated that you haven't the slightest understanding of where I'm coming from.

And I've come to the same conclusion regarding your understanding of where I'm coming from.

Looks like we're stuck then.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

however, is Christianity Philosophically True?

Of course not. Not any variant of it. Or beyond it, including my best case version. In that, God is Love. Not mere love. Transcendent Love would be the ground of infinite being including nature and the transcendent. That would be philosophically valid, I propose. The evolving utterly inadequate God of the Bible certainly is not Love, not even on a good day. But there is no trace of Love, no need. Nature is sufficient, is philosophically true. Once the fallacy of fine tuning is dumped.

[Pistolero]

Didn't Nietzsche adequately diagnose the Christian disease?
Everything that followed is a footnote to his polemics.

Broaden his diagnosis to include all three Abrahamic variants of the same dis-ease.... then realize how it has evolved into secular variants, like Marxism and postmodernism