Philosophy Now Forum

Awareness of being a living conscious entity is all the evidence needed to prove this miracle called a self-aware universe. It is alive. It lives.

Even to know ONE is to differentiate this knowing from the experience of separateness. Without differentiation there is no knowing of anything.

Knowledge always relies on ideas which are the categories with which we differentiate something from what it is not.

Well said Fairy, I agree with 87.4351432 % of that .

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 7:18 am Well said Fairy, I agree with 87.4351432 % of that .

Thank you

You’re welcome.

It’s all so very simple now.

We are eternal fire distracted by the smoke we generate. &

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:44 am It’s all so very simple now.

We are eternal fire distracted by the smoke we generate. &

..well, when you put it that way my percentage of agreement drops significantly.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:03 am

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:44 am It’s all so very simple now.

We are eternal fire distracted by the smoke we generate. &

..well, when you put it that way my percentage of agreement drops significantly.

Okay. No problemo.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 11:30 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 10:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 6:29 pm
Wow. Your standards of evidence might need some raising, B.

https://www.str.org/w/the-jesus-seminar-under-fire

Miracles are paranormal like ghosts, ouija, and poltergeists.

Well, that's a different question than the credibility (or better, as you can see, lack thereof) of "The Jesus Seminar." It's also nothing but an assumption. But it's certainly an assumption many are very enthusiastic to jump to.

There is no evidence for miracles.

You mean, "no evidence I'll accept," not "no evidence, period." There's certainly evidence. You just don't like what it is, I suppose.

The life of Christ would be the first of all miracles, and there's plenty of evidence for it...literary, prophetic, historical, archaeological, and plenty of present-day existential evidence in the lives and cultures of those He's transformed. But that won't maybe make much difference to you. You'll have to set your own standard of what you'll accept and call "evidence." Nobody can force you to have a standard of evidence if you don't choose to have one.

But if you do, then let me ask you the usual question: what would you accept as evidence for a miracle?

The life of Christ is not the same as the life of Jesus of Nazareth. The former is a miraculous legend and the latter is history.

Miracles are alleged events that lack evidence. If there were evidence of an event the event would not be a miracle.
Faith is not evidence and is often gullibility or superstition. True, the Christian moral code is high quality morality. One can adopt the Christian moral code without also believing in impossibilities.

It's part of the human condition that our reasoning faculty keeps the species alive.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:33 pm The life of Christ is not the same as the life of Jesus of Nazareth. The former is a miraculous legend and the latter is history.

This isn't an answer to my question: I'll remind you.

What would you accept as evidence for a miracle?

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:33 pm Miracles are alleged events that lack evidence. If there were evidence of an event the event would not be a miracle.

I have never liked the term miracle ever since being witness to so many. Evidence of many things usually remains subjective, open to interpretation.

I put your above reasoning to GPT - sorry for those that are getting annoyed with LLMs being used, but they do have some good uses for these considerations:-

Response:
If the evidence explains the event scientifically or naturally, it might challenge the idea that it was a "miracle" in the traditional sense. In that case, calling the event a miracle might seem less fitting because miracles, by definition, are often considered beyond natural explanation. For example, if a "miraculous healing" could be explained by medical science, then some might say it’s no longer a miracle but rather a rare but natural occurrence.



..back to the Shroud


The evidence is explained in the video. The reason I insist on this video is because it has footage of microscopic analysis among other things that show the fibres and how they have individually been radiated. Also, a 3D computer model has been generated.


So. Scientists are at a loss as to how in around 1300 AD (if a forgery) people at that time were able to produce a photographic quality negative and on later analysis of professional photos taken of the shroud, have enough information embedded by way of grayscale hue differentiations to now using NASA tech, create a 3D model of a body in rigor-mortis.

My question to you Belinda is, thus far would such an artifact be considered miraculous, or simply lacking evidence of the abilities of medieval people?


Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s



The artifact of the "Shroud of Turin"

Carbon-14 Dating:
In 1988, an international team of scientists performed radiocarbon dating on the shroud, concluding that it was not from the time of Christ's crucifixion (1st century AD) but from the medieval period (1260-1390 AD).


My points are:-
1. Even if that date is accurate (as it was taken from a repair done since the shroud had been burnt at around that date) this is long before photography. The image IS a negative image of photographic quality.

2. The radiation image on the shroud has now been found with current technology to have grayscale (hue) changes with enough information that NASA technology has been used and has shown that the image is a 3D image of a body in rigor-mortis.

3. This was my google search regarding more recent scientific analysis of the sample that had the dates at (1260-1390 AD):-


From google:

Laser Experiments:
In 2011, researchers from the European Nuclear Energy Agency (ENEA) successfully replicated the shallow depth and coloration of the Shroud image using a 40-nanosecond burst from an ultraviolet excimer laser on raw linen fabrics.

Mechanism:
The laser pulses scorched the fabric with similar microscopic properties to the Shroud, creating a permanent coloration, but only penetrating the required 0.2–0.4 microns of the 300 micron wide cellulose fibers.

Implications:
This research suggests that a short, intense burst of ultraviolet radiation could have created the image on the Shroud.

Origin of the Image:
The researchers propose that the image may have been formed by a "flash of light" or a similar phenomenon, but the exact mechanism and technology used at the time of the Shroud's creation remain a mystery.

From MSN...

"According to the Smithsonian Magazine, the Earth’s magnetic north pole has been on the move, but in the last few decades, something strange has happened—it’s started drifting at an unprecedented speed. In the early 1900s, it moved at a steady pace of about 10 miles per year. Then, in the 1990s, it suddenly accelerated to nearly 34 miles per year, racing across the Arctic toward Russia. This rapid shift has caught scientists off guard, as they struggle to understand why the movement has become so erratic.

"The consequences of this shift extend far beyond a simple change in navigation maps. The magnetic field is crucial for everything from GPS systems to aviation, and a constantly moving pole means that navigation tools need frequent recalibrations. Worse still, some researchers believe this is a sign that we could be heading toward a complete magnetic pole reversal—an event where the north and south poles swap places. While these reversals have happened many times in Earth’s history, the impacts on modern civilization remain a mystery.

"This could have serious consequences for both technology and life on Earth. A weaker magnetic field means that more radiation from the sun and space can reach our planet’s surface, potentially disrupting satellites, damaging power grids, and even increasing health risks for astronauts and airline passengers. Some experts worry that this weakening is another sign that we’re heading toward a pole reversal, which could take centuries to complete, leaving us vulnerable in the meantime."

https://youtu.be/sm4uHnnbg4Y?si=BBS4P9LvArkWMAML

I'm drawn to accounts like this because it revolves around two things that most preoccupy me regarding Christianity: theodicy and the laws of nature.

No one knows for sure what our fate might be as a result of such a shift but there is plenty of speculation of late regarding the potential for dire straits. Particularly as the shift is speeding up.

Then the part where God seems, once again, to be anchored to the laws of nature. In other words, nature dictates what either can or cannot be accomplished by Him.

Otherwise, why create such complex material interactions in the first place?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:30 am From MSN...

"According to the Smithsonian Magazine, the Earth’s magnetic north pole has been on the move, but in the last few decades, something strange has happened—it’s started drifting at an unprecedented speed. In the early 1900s, it moved at a steady pace of about 10 miles per year. Then, in the 1990s, it suddenly accelerated to nearly 34 miles per year, racing across the Arctic toward Russia. This rapid shift has caught scientists off guard, as they struggle to understand why the movement has become so erratic.

"The consequences of this shift extend far beyond a simple change in navigation maps. The magnetic field is crucial for everything from GPS systems to aviation, and a constantly moving pole means that navigation tools need frequent recalibrations. Worse still, some researchers believe this is a sign that we could be heading toward a complete magnetic pole reversal—an event where the north and south poles swap places. While these reversals have happened many times in Earth’s history, the impacts on modern civilization remain a mystery.

"This could have serious consequences for both technology and life on Earth. A weaker magnetic field means that more radiation from the sun and space can reach our planet’s surface, potentially disrupting satellites, damaging power grids, and even increasing health risks for astronauts and airline passengers. Some experts worry that this weakening is another sign that we’re heading toward a pole reversal, which could take centuries to complete, leaving us vulnerable in the meantime."

https://youtu.be/sm4uHnnbg4Y?si=BBS4P9LvArkWMAML

I'm drawn to accounts like this because it revolves around two things that most preoccupy me regarding Christianity: theodicy and the laws of nature.

No one knows for sure what our fate might be as a result of such a shift but there is plenty of speculation of late regarding the potential for dire straits. Particularly as the shift is speeding up.

Then the part where God seems, once again, to be anchored to the laws of nature. In other words, nature dictates what either can or cannot be accomplished by Him.

It's not that nature is dictating such matters. Of course, an omnipotent GOD to our reality could have us all in a simulation where none of these things occur. Perhaps, the only mechanisms within the nature of our planet is what befits us.

We can't be certain that is not the case. That humans are tasked however to deal with such challenges, to rise to the challenge as is said.

I have said before that I am glad to know that GOD exists, especially when I see horrific workplace accidents - men being stuck inside industrial ovens that gradually start to heat with no escape. Honestly, I watch these accounts on utube, and I am relieved to know that the suffering was cut short.

I actually think that once this GOD created qualia, consciousness that IT insisted on making parameter limits to such things as suffering.

What a boring pointless world we would be in if we didn't have challenges, a reason to learn, become doctors, engineers etc.

I am rather busy atm, but was surprised in the report above that the shift in magnetic pole positions would have any affect on GPS.

The unconscious made conscious is a miracle < That one is too obvious.


Now

The devil always has you right were God wants you.

Many human beings need no supernatural mentoring to commit acts of savagery; some people are devils in their own right, their telltale horns having grown inward to facilitate their disguise.


People who cease to believe in God or goodness altogether still believe in the devil. I don't know why. No, I do indeed know why. Evil is always possible. And goodness is eternally difficult.

An apology for the Devil: It must be remembered that we have heard only one side of the case. God has written all the books.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:51 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:30 am From MSN...

"According to the Smithsonian Magazine, the Earth’s magnetic north pole has been on the move, but in the last few decades, something strange has happened—it’s started drifting at an unprecedented speed. In the early 1900s, it moved at a steady pace of about 10 miles per year. Then, in the 1990s, it suddenly accelerated to nearly 34 miles per year, racing across the Arctic toward Russia. This rapid shift has caught scientists off guard, as they struggle to understand why the movement has become so erratic.

"The consequences of this shift extend far beyond a simple change in navigation maps. The magnetic field is crucial for everything from GPS systems to aviation, and a constantly moving pole means that navigation tools need frequent recalibrations. Worse still, some researchers believe this is a sign that we could be heading toward a complete magnetic pole reversal—an event where the north and south poles swap places. While these reversals have happened many times in Earth’s history, the impacts on modern civilization remain a mystery.

"This could have serious consequences for both technology and life on Earth. A weaker magnetic field means that more radiation from the sun and space can reach our planet’s surface, potentially disrupting satellites, damaging power grids, and even increasing health risks for astronauts and airline passengers. Some experts worry that this weakening is another sign that we’re heading toward a pole reversal, which could take centuries to complete, leaving us vulnerable in the meantime."

https://youtu.be/sm4uHnnbg4Y?si=BBS4P9LvArkWMAML

I'm drawn to accounts like this because it revolves around two things that most preoccupy me regarding Christianity: theodicy and the laws of nature.

No one knows for sure what our fate might be as a result of such a shift but there is plenty of speculation of late regarding the potential for dire straits. Particularly as the shift is speeding up.

Then the part where God seems, once again, to be anchored to the laws of nature. In other words, nature dictates what either can or cannot be accomplished by Him.

It's not that nature is dictating such matters. Of course, an omnipotent GOD to our reality could have us all in a simulation where none of these things occur. Perhaps, the only mechanisms within the nature of our planet is what befits us.

We can't be certain that is not the case. That humans are tasked however to deal with such challenges, to rise to the challenge as is said.

I have said before that I am glad to know that GOD exists, especially when I see horrific workplace accidents - men being stuck inside industrial ovens that gradually start to heat with no escape. Honestly, I watch these accounts on utube, and I am relieved to know that the suffering was cut short.

But, 'the suffering' would NOT have to be 'cut short' if 'your VERSION OF God' had NOT PUT 'that one' IN 'the oven' to begin with.

LOL So-called "christians" can be SO BLIND and SO 'ONE-SIDED' that they can NOT and do NOT SEE that God PUT EVERY one who SUFFERS INTO that VERY PLACE. BUT, they DO 'see' that when SUFFERING IT ALLEVIATED, then it was CAUSED BY God, ONLY.

How MUCH MORE SELECTIVE could 'these people's' VIEWING, and SEEING, GET?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:51 am I actually think that once this GOD created qualia, consciousness that IT insisted on making parameter limits to such things as suffering.

'you' are FREE TO 'think' absolutely ANY thing 'you' like. But, if what is THOUGHT to be true can NOT be backed up and supported, then there REALLY IS NO USE even CONTINUING ON WITH 'that thought'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:51 am What a boring pointless world we would be in if we didn't have challenges, a reason to learn, become doctors, engineers etc.

YET do ANY other animals 'get bored'?

Does ANY other animal 'commit suicide'?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:51 am I am rather busy atm, but was surprised in the report above that the shift in magnetic pole positions would have any affect on GPS.

Okay.

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:35 am The unconscious made conscious is a miracle < That one is too obvious.


Now

The devil always has you right were God wants you.

'I' like 'this point' VERY MUCH.

There is SO MUCH MORE 'truth' in it then just about EVERY one, here, REALIZES.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:51 am Many human beings need no supernatural mentoring to commit acts of savagery; some people are devils in their own right, their telltale horns having grown inward to facilitate their disguise.


People who cease to believe in God or goodness altogether still believe in the devil. I don't know why. No, I do indeed know why. Evil is always possible. And goodness is eternally difficult.

Let you people NOT FORGET that BELIEVING and DISBELIEVING are NOT necessary things, in Life. And, also DO NOT FORGET that BELIEVING and DISBELIEVING has LED you human beings to NOT YET KNOWING and REALIZING what IS ACTUALLY True, Right, AND 'good', in Life, as well.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:51 am An apology for the Devil: It must be remembered that we have heard only one side of the case. God has written all the books.

But, and AGAIN, the Truth WITHIN 'all the mentioned books' has NOT YET BEEN FULLY UNDERSTOOD, and FULLY REAL-IZED.

What WAS INTENDED to be REVEALED, has OBVIOUSLY NOT YET FULLY BEEN TO ALL, nor even ANY OF, you, here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:47 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Mar 24, 2025 6:33 pm The life of Christ is not the same as the life of Jesus of Nazareth. The former is a miraculous legend and the latter is history.

This isn't an answer to my question: I'll remind you.

What would you accept as evidence for a miracle?

The Roman Catholic Magisterium 's affirmation that an event is miraculous.
A miracle is an intervention by God into His own laws of nature.