The Philosophy Now Forum

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:26 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 10:09 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 9:38 pm

the credit/blame cuts both ways...

-Imp

Nope. Still not at all clear. It looks like you're blaming those who opposed Hitler, because it was Hitler they opposed. That would make no sense.

a soldier pulls the trigger and another soldier dies

are you blaming Hitler or Roosevelt?

-Imp

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:36 pm If Sgt Shultz kills a soldier on the Russian front, is it still Roosevelt's fault? Wouldn't Stalin have something to do with that? And since Hitler was the one who started the war against Russia by invading it, wouldn't Hitler bear at least as much if not more, responsibility than Stalin?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:35 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:31 pm
Well, responsibility is divided between the giver of the orders and the follower. But why would somebody who disobeyed Hitler or Roosevelt, and did not shoot, be guilty of anything?

insubordination is not a mortal sin

Actually I would think that refusing immoral leadership was itself a moral act.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:44 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:36 pm If Sgt Shultz kills a soldier on the Russian front, is it still Roosevelt's fault? Wouldn't Stalin have something to do with that? And since Hitler was the one who started the war against Russia by invading it, wouldn't Hitler bear at least as much if not more, responsibility than Stalin?

a soldier pulls the trigger and another soldier dies

blaming someone besides the one who pulls the trigger misses the target

extenuating circumstances provide no relief

-Imp

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:50 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:44 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:36 pm If Sgt Shultz kills a soldier on the Russian front, is it still Roosevelt's fault? Wouldn't Stalin have something to do with that? And since Hitler was the one who started the war against Russia by invading it, wouldn't Hitler bear at least as much if not more, responsibility than Stalin?

a soldier pulls the trigger and another soldier dies

blaming someone besides the one who pulls the trigger misses the target

extenuating circumstances provide no relief

-Imp

So should I blame the US pilots who carried out the strikes that started the Iran war for starting the Iran war? Should I even blame them for killing civilians in a surprise attack that Tojo would have probably approved of? And I think the US tried Tojo for war crimes too, didn't we?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:50 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:44 pm

a soldier pulls the trigger and another soldier dies

blaming someone besides the one who pulls the trigger misses the target

extenuating circumstances provide no relief

-Imp

So should I blame the US pilots who carried out the strikes that started the Iran war for starting the Iran war? Should I even blame them for killing civilians in a surprise attack that Tojo would have probably approved of? And I think the US tried Tojo for war crimes too, didn't we?

starting a war is a political endeavor...

following orders is what soldiers do... some soldiers become weapons, others not so much

the US as part of an international military tribunal found Tojo guilty and killed ("executed") him

-Imp

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:07 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:50 pm

So should I blame the US pilots who carried out the strikes that started the Iran war for starting the Iran war? Should I even blame them for killing civilians in a surprise attack that Tojo would have probably approved of? And I think the US tried Tojo for war crimes too, didn't we?

starting a war is a political endeavor...

following orders is what soldiers do... some soldiers become weapons, others not so much

the US as part of an international military tribunal found Tojo guilty and killed ("executed") him

-Imp

So you said soldiers are responsible for what they do, are our soldiers responsible for civilians who are inadvertently killed while they follow Trump's orders? I mean, according to your absolute definition of "responsibility", some of our soldiers absolutely have civilian blood on their hands. Do they really? Should they have disobeyed Trump if they didn't want to be "responsible" (as you insist) for civilian deaths?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:07 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:00 am

starting a war is a political endeavor...

following orders is what soldiers do... some soldiers become weapons, others not so much

the US as part of an international military tribunal found Tojo guilty and killed ("executed") him

-Imp

So you said soldiers are responsible for what they do, are our soldiers responsible for civilians who are inadvertently killed while they follow Trump's orders? I mean, according to your absolute definition of "responsibility", some of our soldiers absolutely have civilian blood on their hands. Do they really? Should they have disobeyed Trump if they didn't want to be "responsible" (as you insist) for civilian deaths?

if you pull the trigger or drop the bomb- it is on you...

following orders provides no moral absolution

causalities of war included

-Imp

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:32 am And of course, according to Impenitent's theory, a politician can start all the wars he wants and so long as he doesn't actually pull the trigger, he hasn't harmed anyone. He's completely innocent. He just accidentally signed a declaration of war or orders to start a conflict in which thousands of people will die. Even Hitler. Millions died in extermination camps at the hands of their executioners. But it's the executioners who are guilty (I agree), but not Hitler. Hitler was a great guy. Even if he ordered death camps to be set up, he wasn't the one doing the killing. If only we could get a politician like Hitler who will start wars in the name of keeping his country xenophobic and nationalistic. Wait... actually, Trump seems to fit that description. Maybe we already do?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:03 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:32 am And of course, according to Impenitent's theory, a politician can start all the wars he wants and so long as he doesn't actually pull the trigger, he hasn't harmed anyone. He's completely innocent. He just accidentally signed a declaration of war or orders to start a conflict in which thousands of people will die. Even Hitler. Millions died in extermination camps at the hands of their executioners. But it's the executioners who are guilty (I agree), but not Hitler. Hitler was a great guy. Even if he ordered death camps to be set up, he wasn't the one doing the killing. If only we could get a politician like Hitler who will start wars in the name of keeping his country xenophobic and nationalistic. Wait... actually, Trump seems to fit that description. Maybe we already do?

no, I didn't say the politicians are innocent- I just said they didn't pull the trigger

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:35 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:34 pm

insubordination is not a mortal sin

Actually I would think that refusing immoral leadership was itself a moral act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

-Imp

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:01 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:07 am

So you said soldiers are responsible for what they do, are our soldiers responsible for civilians who are inadvertently killed while they follow Trump's orders? I mean, according to your absolute definition of "responsibility", some of our soldiers absolutely have civilian blood on their hands. Do they really? Should they have disobeyed Trump if they didn't want to be "responsible" (as you insist) for civilian deaths?

if you pull the trigger or drop the bomb- it is on you...

following orders provides no moral absolution

causalities of war included

-Imp

What about the leader who orders the soldier to drop the bombs. Is that leader responsible for anything?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:06 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:03 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:32 am And of course, according to Impenitent's theory, a politician can start all the wars he wants and so long as he doesn't actually pull the trigger, he hasn't harmed anyone. He's completely innocent. He just accidentally signed a declaration of war or orders to start a conflict in which thousands of people will die. Even Hitler. Millions died in extermination camps at the hands of their executioners. But it's the executioners who are guilty (I agree), but not Hitler. Hitler was a great guy. Even if he ordered death camps to be set up, he wasn't the one doing the killing. If only we could get a politician like Hitler who will start wars in the name of keeping his country xenophobic and nationalistic. Wait... actually, Trump seems to fit that description. Maybe we already do?

no, I didn't say the politicians are innocent- I just said they didn't pull the trigger

-Imp

So what you are saying is that the people responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians in the Iran war are the ones who pull the triggers killing those civilians AND Donald Trump. Is that correct?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 1:06 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 11:35 pm
Actually I would think that refusing immoral leadership was itself a moral act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

-Imp

I must assume you saw the movie "Hacksaw Ridge"? It's awesome.

So...I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Can you clear that up for me?