Is Evolution random or non-random

[Gary Childress]

Earthquake in Venezuela, wildfires all over the US. Sounds like our "benevolent" God, the almighty one who we're supposed to worship at the threat of eternal torture, is busy today. Aren't we such lucky beings to live in this world created by such a wonderful God? It must be absolute hell to live in the areas affected by those disasters. I can't imagine the horror and terror those poor people must be going through. We could pray for their safety and restoration of their lives, but I'm not sure that praying to a God that inflicted those horrors on them is really going to do any good. Far be it from us mortals to interrupt God's fun. But I'll give it a go:

Dear God, please bring safety and restoration to all the people of Earth who are currently suffering. Thank you. Amen.

[Gary Childress]

Well, if you doubt it, let's test it.

What meaning can your life possibly have, if the universe in which you find yourself has no Creator, no purpose, no direction, no plan, no actual value, and its outcome is your extinction? Let's see what could fill that hole.

What do you say?

My life has the same meaning as yours does, with or without a God.

By the hand of the almighty God who holds the earth up. The world hangs on Nothing.

Figure out who you are in relation to the absolute. That’s your only job worth doing. Do the work, or don’t do the work, it’s totally your choice, no one else can do your job better than you. It’s your job to make your job work for you. Forget about others, for they too are doing their jobs, it’s not your job to carry the whole world on your shoulders.

When I figure out what any of that means, I'll let you know.

[Immanuel Can]

I just wonder why some people lose their lucidity, as Nietzsche did. Yet others can endure the most unimaginable suffering and pain, yet still die happy and content, because they understand what God is? What are your thoughts about that, if you don’t mind sharing of course?

I don't mind. Let me suggest that the answer is nothing we can't understand.

I know you know what it is to be in labour. You know that quite horrible pain is coming. How long it will last, you cannot know in advance. How many contractions will there be? Will there be ripping? Will a caesarean be necessary? An episeotomy? How much blood? Will the epidural work? There are plenty of worries, and much pain to be endured, plausibly. How long will healing take? Will there be any birth difficulties? Who can say?

How then can any woman accept that? How can a woman even laugh with joy at the end of it? Is it not because she holds her new son or daughter close to her heart and rejoices that a new life has come into the world, with new love, new hopes...but how has she so quickly forgotten the pain, the fear, the suffering?

Because it had meaning. It was all aimed at the glorious goal of a new child. And when you see that your suffering as produced that at which it was aimed, it's all not only bearable, but joy follows it.

So it is with all suffering. If there is purpose, meaning, direction, value in what is being suffered-for, then it is not only possible to endure it, but even to be happy. But if all that suffering were for nothing, then how could one be joyful?

That's life. The things we suffer that have meaning are endurable...even heroic...and even happy. They can be, as we say, "worth it all." The things we suffer because of our own stupidity, veniality or the meanness of the world itself, these things deprive us of happiness. It's meaning that makes all things worthwhile.

Amazing. Absofukinlutely amazing.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I have to agree.

Having experienced the excruciating pain of 4 natural births after choosing the natural way, even as epidural was offered I didn’t fancy the palaver of such a procedure. So chose to put my faith in natures way and trust it to deliver. I was lucky as each birth was without any complications. And yes, the joy and relief that comes after the pain is indescribably profound and satisfying. It’s almost like watching yourself perform miracles, it’s amazing and despite the pain, you soon become aware of the astonishing feats the human body is capable of, and what it can do all by itself is miraculous to observe.

"Miraculous" is the right word, I think. Men can only stand back and marvel at it. A new life brought into the world -- it almost seems to replay the original miracle of Creation...so much out of "nothing," called into being (so it seems) merely by love. And yet, this miracle, such a godlike human moment of love and creation, is denigrated and despised so badly that people perform it, then reject the creative outcome and kill 73 million miracles ever year.

And we might well wonder, does such a civilization, so hateful of life, even survive? Can a species that so despises its own reproductive miracle last?

Also experienced a few extremely deep and dark nights of the soul, and survived even those, yes, the most difficult challenges in life are all endurable, and I’m eternally grateful for each experience as they have had a profound impact on my life transforming it into better and better versions of myself. I have started to appreciate the miracle of being alive with more compassion empathy and resilience, I just simply understand God’s ways, it takes my breath away. I have no fear of dying and know that when I do my body will dissolve into the ocean of God’s infinite Love. I’ve been through some really unimaginable shit in my personal life, but none of what’s happened to me has changed the fact that I’m still in love with life and have never become bitter or resentful. I’m still standing and shining brighter than ever. I have absolute trust in God’s providence, for those who trust in the process of life to know what it’s doing.

Yep, I get that sentiment -- your experience is unique, of course, but we don't live in this world without learning how to suffer. Nevertheless, there is suffering that crushes, and suffering that is worth it all. It can even be the same kind of suffering...but if the meaning is in place, the unendurable becomes the heroic, the transcendent, the noble sacrifice, the burden-to-be-born, instead of a crushing absurdity.

Even Camus, the Atheist, realized this. That's why his "tragic hero," Sisyphus, is supposedly able to transcend his suffering. But Camus's solution is dry and empty: he says Sisyphus must "choose his rock." This isn't correct, because it means Sisyphus must simply embrace his own misery. Rather, what Sisyphus needs to know is that the rock-rolling could tend to some higher purpose or end that could contextualize the suffering for him, and teach him that his suffering would not only end, but would have "an end" -- a purpose, a value, something done in service of the higher and eternal. Then, and only then, could we truly imagine Sisyphus being happy, as Camus demands we do at the end of his account of the myth.

Meaning transforms suffering. That's a basic axiom of human existence, it seems.

[Fairy]

My life has the same meaning as yours does, with or without a God.

By the hand of the almighty God who holds the earth up. The world hangs on Nothing.

Figure out who you are in relation to the absolute. That’s your only job worth doing. Do the work, or don’t do the work, it’s totally your choice, no one else can do your job better than you. It’s your job to make your job work for you. Forget about others, for they too are doing their jobs, it’s not your job to carry the whole world on your shoulders.

When I figure out what any of that means, I'll let you know.

I’m sure you’ll figure out, eventually, who you are and what your job entails ie; figuring out who’s actually doing the figuring, figuratively speaking. I’m sure you know you’re not a dumb action figure, but are more than capable of understanding that behind every dummy lay a miraculous intelligence breathing life into it so that it may figure itself out, and then you’ll know.
Only you can do it, no one else can do it for you, I’m really rooting for you to deliver your own knowing.

[Fairy]

I don't mind. Let me suggest that the answer is nothing we can't understand.

I know you know what it is to be in labour. You know that quite horrible pain is coming. How long it will last, you cannot know in advance. How many contractions will there be? Will there be ripping? Will a caesarean be necessary? An episeotomy? How much blood? Will the epidural work? There are plenty of worries, and much pain to be endured, plausibly. How long will healing take? Will there be any birth difficulties? Who can say?

How then can any woman accept that? How can a woman even laugh with joy at the end of it? Is it not because she holds her new son or daughter close to her heart and rejoices that a new life has come into the world, with new love, new hopes...but how has she so quickly forgotten the pain, the fear, the suffering?

Because it had meaning. It was all aimed at the glorious goal of a new child. And when you see that your suffering as produced that at which it was aimed, it's all not only bearable, but joy follows it.

So it is with all suffering. If there is purpose, meaning, direction, value in what is being suffered-for, then it is not only possible to endure it, but even to be happy. But if all that suffering were for nothing, then how could one be joyful?

That's life. The things we suffer that have meaning are endurable...even heroic...and even happy. They can be, as we say, "worth it all." The things we suffer because of our own stupidity, veniality or the meanness of the world itself, these things deprive us of happiness. It's meaning that makes all things worthwhile.

Amazing. Absofukinlutely amazing.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I have to agree.

Having experienced the excruciating pain of 4 natural births after choosing the natural way, even as epidural was offered I didn’t fancy the palaver of such a procedure. So chose to put my faith in natures way and trust it to deliver. I was lucky as each birth was without any complications. And yes, the joy and relief that comes after the pain is indescribably profound and satisfying. It’s almost like watching yourself perform miracles, it’s amazing and despite the pain, you soon become aware of the astonishing feats the human body is capable of, and what it can do all by itself is miraculous to observe.

"Miraculous" is the right word, I think. Men can only stand back and marvel at it. A new life brought into the world -- it almost seems to replay the original miracle of Creation...so much out of "nothing," called into being (so it seems) merely by love. And yet, this miracle, such a godlike human moment of love and creation, is denigrated and despised so badly that people perform it, then reject the creative outcome and kill 73 million miracles ever year.

And we might well wonder, does such a civilization, so hateful of life, even survive? Can a species that so despises its own reproductive miracle last?

Also experienced a few extremely deep and dark nights of the soul, and survived even those, yes, the most difficult challenges in life are all endurable, and I’m eternally grateful for each experience as they have had a profound impact on my life transforming it into better and better versions of myself. I have started to appreciate the miracle of being alive with more compassion empathy and resilience, I just simply understand God’s ways, it takes my breath away. I have no fear of dying and know that when I do my body will dissolve into the ocean of God’s infinite Love. I’ve been through some really unimaginable shit in my personal life, but none of what’s happened to me has changed the fact that I’m still in love with life and have never become bitter or resentful. I’m still standing and shining brighter than ever. I have absolute trust in God’s providence, for those who trust in the process of life to know what it’s doing.

Yep, I get that sentiment -- your experience is unique, of course, but we don't live in this world without learning how to suffer. Nevertheless, there is suffering that crushes, and suffering that is worth it all. It can even be the same kind of suffering...but if the meaning is in place, the unendurable becomes the heroic, the transcendent, the noble sacrifice, the burden-to-be-born, instead of a crushing absurdity.

Even Camus, the Atheist, realized this. That's why his "tragic hero," Sisyphus, is supposedly able to transcend his suffering. But Camus's solution is dry and empty: he says Sisyphus must "choose his rock." This isn't correct, because it means Sisyphus must simply embrace his own misery. Rather, what Sisyphus needs to know is that the rock-rolling could tend to some higher purpose or end that could contextualize the suffering for him, and teach him that his suffering would not only end, but would have "an end" -- a purpose, a value, something done in service of the higher and eternal. Then, and only then, could we truly imagine Sisyphus being happy, as Camus demands we do at the end of his account of the myth.

Meaning transforms suffering. That's a basic axiom of human existence, it seems.

Absolutely percent agree with this. Thanks.
Love the Sisyphus pointing, in that we must imagine Sisyphus happy. Glad you mentioned that.


Your own awakening is the greatest gift you can offer the world. By doing the inner work of self-transformation, you naturally radiate clarity, compassion, and presence, shifting how you impact everyone around you.

If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation.You have only yourself to thank for such dedication, consistency, commitment and real hard work.

Apply within. The lazy mind need not apply.

[phyllo]

Sisyphus is rolling the stone as punishment for disobeying the gods. That is the "higher purpose or end". That is "something done in service of the higher and eternal".

[Gary Childress]

Sisyphus is rolling the stone as punishment for disobeying the gods. That is the "higher purpose or end". That is "something done in service of the higher and eternal".

Yes. Sisyphus would be the Greek version of an unrepentant sinner, paying his dues through divine punishment. Interestingly enough, there were multiple versions given in Greek mythology as to what Sisyphus was being punished for. I guess it all depended upon the person telling the myth as to what the ultimate crime against the gods is.

[Immanuel Can]

Sisyphus is rolling the stone as punishment for disobeying the gods. That is the "higher purpose or end". That is "something done in service of the higher and eternal".

Yes. Sisyphus would be the Greek version of an unrepentant sinner, paying his dues through divine punishment. Interestingly enough, there were multiple versions given in Greek mythology as to what Sisyphus was being punished for. I guess it all depended upon the person telling the myth as to what the ultimate crime against the gods is.

Somebody needs to read Camus. It was to Camus that the original reference was made.

[Gary Childress]

Sisyphus is rolling the stone as punishment for disobeying the gods. That is the "higher purpose or end". That is "something done in service of the higher and eternal".

Yes. Sisyphus would be the Greek version of an unrepentant sinner, paying his dues through divine punishment. Interestingly enough, there were multiple versions given in Greek mythology as to what Sisyphus was being punished for. I guess it all depended upon the person telling the myth as to what the ultimate crime against the gods is.

Somebody needs to read Camus. It was to Camus that the original reference was made.

I'm well aware of what Camus, meant. I've read it multiple times.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes. Sisyphus would be the Greek version of an unrepentant sinner, paying his dues through divine punishment. Interestingly enough, there were multiple versions given in Greek mythology as to what Sisyphus was being punished for. I guess it all depended upon the person telling the myth as to what the ultimate crime against the gods is.

Somebody needs to read Camus. It was to Camus that the original reference was made.

I'm well aware of what Camus, meant. I've read it multiple times.

Camus did not believe in gods. He used the whole myth merely as a metaphor for Existential "heroism." But his answers were all dusty.

[Gary Childress]

Somebody needs to read Camus. It was to Camus that the original reference was made.

I'm well aware of what Camus, meant. I've read it multiple times.

Camus did not believe in gods. He used the whole myth merely as a metaphor for Existential "heroism." But his answers were all dusty.

I know Camus was an atheist but he's saying that mythology has meaning in real life (that obviously includes Christianity). Otherwise, he wouldn't be bothering with a Greek myth involving the Greek gods. Religion and mythology aren't 100% fantasy; they usually deal with real issues that humans have and face in life. The fact that we all have those issues serves as a bridge in meaning between different mythologies and even with people who don't believe in mythology at all. Everyone realizes that our religions tell us something about the human experience; it's just that you take one religion extremely literally, word for word, and therefore you miss the universality of themes that permeate all of human experience.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm well aware of what Camus, meant. I've read it multiple times.

Camus did not believe in gods. He used the whole myth merely as a metaphor for Existential "heroism." But his answers were all dusty.

I know Camus was an atheist but he's saying that mythology has meaning in real life (that obviously includes Christianity). Otherwise, he wouldn't be bothering with a Greek myth involving the Greek gods.

No, you've misunderstood him. He's not plugging for Greek paganism, far less for Christianity. He's trying to describe what he calls "the absurd hero," using a Greek myth to do it.

You said you'd read this book...are you sure you have?

[Gary Childress]

Camus did not believe in gods. He used the whole myth merely as a metaphor for Existential "heroism." But his answers were all dusty.

I know Camus was an atheist but he's saying that mythology has meaning in real life (that obviously includes Christianity). Otherwise, he wouldn't be bothering with a Greek myth involving the Greek gods.

No, you've misunderstood him. He's not plugging for Greek paganism, far less for Christianity. He's trying to describe what he calls "the absurd hero," using a Greek myth to do it.

You said you'd read this book...are you sure you have?

Did you read my reply? I explained my position in it. It's very reasonable and a widespread interpretation of mythology. Even Camus had that interpretation. Or do you think Camus was too stupid to use mythology to make a point? That he actually believed in Zeus and the Greek gods? That's just idiotic.

[Immanuel Can]

I know Camus was an atheist but he's saying that mythology has meaning in real life (that obviously includes Christianity). Otherwise, he wouldn't be bothering with a Greek myth involving the Greek gods.

No, you've misunderstood him. He's not plugging for Greek paganism, far less for Christianity. He's trying to describe what he calls "the absurd hero," using a Greek myth to do it.

You said you'd read this book...are you sure you have?

Did you read my reply?

That's why I asked.

[popeye1945]

NOTE: I don't think evolution is completely random; however, there seems to be a random component in it, which is mutation. However, one might be able to say that mutation is ultimately "governed" by natural forces that cause something to mutate in a particular way, but something is not going to mutate into just anything and everything. It's going to mutate according to what the code of DNA produces when its sequence is altered in a specific way. [/quote'

Hi Gary, it's been a while.

No, there is nothing random about evolution; evolution is a process governed by physical laws. Actually, nothing is truly random; there is apparent randomness, but the apparent is due to the limitations of our intellect. This is what makes the religious claims of miracles so absurd, and is the foundation of the belief in free will. Imperfection is the nature of reality, and this is what the physical laws work upon that enables the process of evolution through change and adaptations; the process is governed all the way through but is never complete, for the process is endless. An added note: if there were any such thing as perfection, it would freeze the concept of adaptation; perfection would be death and decay. Imperfection is the engine of evolution; perfection could not adapt to the larger changing reality of the Earth. Mutation does not have a high success rate; it generally means death, but death is part of the process; only those mutations that are fortunate in aligning with the changing condition, which is the environment/Earth. Natural selection is the environment accepting, for lack of a better word, the mutation/key that fits the lock of Earth's new conditions.



When most scientists today use the term "chance" in a broad sense, they generally mean that something may not be designed by a conscious being who directs the overall interactions of the world in a specific way. When Evolutionary Theists use the word "chance," they mean it's not governed at all by anything but purely random, uncalculable, or unforeseeable events, and that only something conscious called God can cause things to mutate in specific calculable ways. But of course, the word "God" tends to imply various ideals of how people view "God". Most people seem to view God as a human being, with human emotions and concerns. So when an Evolutionary theist uses the word "God", they are using it in a way that is not necessarily neutral to human interpretation.

Religious people have a vested interest in denying reality, for without randomness, free will would not be possible, and neither would events that occur as an affront to physical laws, the so-called miracles. Also, sin would not be possible.