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Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:31 pm
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:22 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:08 pm
But even one is an indicator of a serious problem. It's like having a mousehole in your garage; if one can get in, can't two? How about ten? Or a thousand? When is the hole too small to admit any more?
Cure and disease, which is worse.
Disease, of course...always.
If there's a little water in the boat, it's time to act.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:32 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:08 pm
Go back and look...and I didn' t even have to try hard to find them. How many more are there? Nobody knows for sure, but more, to be sure.
But even one is an indicator of a serious problem. It's like having a mousehole in your garage; if one can get in, can't two? How about ten? Or a thousand? When is the hole too small to admit any more?
Answer: it never is, so long as more want to use it. Likewise, a fault in your democratic procedure means it can be subverted to any degree. So if you're smart, you close the hole.
OK. Fair enough. I'll take your word for it that you provided evidence, since you're a Godly person. Let's fix the holes. By all means...
Well, you should look. I provided a whole bunch of links on that. And I could easily have produced more, of course. Those only took me a few minutes to locate.
What sources were cited in your links? Were the sources pundits merely naming some instances of voting fraud or did the links show that the "process has been significantly undermined" as you claim? I mean, it's not like we don't use measures at all to ensure that only citizens vote in state and federal elections. If as stated in Phyllo's article that we're dealing with numbers below 100 per millions, then it seems like the measures we do have are largely working and such cases could be handled by regular court proceedings when they are found. It also appears that municipalities are finding those few who are voting illegally.
But to say that Trump lost an election due to illegal voting (which seems to be the allegation by some Republicans) seems absurd given what facts have been presented.
I mean, do you agree with that assertion by Republicans that Trump lost an election due to voter fraud or is your approach "better safe than sorry, let's do all that can possibly be done, just in case"?
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:37 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:11 pm
OK. Fair enough. I'll take your word for it that you provided evidence, since you're a Godly person. Let's fix the holes. By all means...
Well, you should look. I provided a whole bunch of links on that. And I could easily have produced more, of course. Those only took me a few minutes to locate.
What sources were cited in your links?
Too bored to check? I'm too bored to reply.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:44 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:37 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:18 pm
Well, you should look. I provided a whole bunch of links on that. And I could easily have produced more, of course. Those only took me a few minutes to locate.
What sources were cited in your links?
Too bored to check? I'm too bored to reply.
Fair enough. That's fine. Phyllo has provided something directly above that seems to match what I've generally heard from reputable sources concerning the issue. I mean, if you were citing significant statistics showing that "the process has been significantly undermined", it would be pretty easy to link to the post that you think does that. If you're just going off pundits with some spurious accounts, then I really don't want to go back and sift through them. Phyllo's article already does that and it seems to be a negligible problem from the looks of it.
However, if voters want to make that a major issue for the government to invest time and resources into, then that's fine too. It's no skin off my back, as long as they don't cut social security and other programs that seem important while pursuing the goal.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:57 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:37 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:32 pm
What sources were cited in your links?
Too bored to check? I'm too bored to reply.
Fair enough. That's fine. Phyllo has provided something directly above that seems to match what I've generally heard from reputable sources concerning the issue.
If you accept it, you accept it. I wouldn't. It's a bad argument: the leak in the boat is little, is essentially what he's pleading...not that the boat is sound. And I don't think he's right...in fact, I'm very sure he's not...but even if I gave him that argument, it wouldn't justify the conclusion that voter ID is sound in America...so I'm not even engaging it.
It's not worth the time, because even if he's right, he's just admitted the process is faulty, and all we'd be arguing about is HOW BADLY faulty. And that would be a wasted argument.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:00 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 8:57 pm
It's not worth the time, because even if he's right, he's just admitted the process is faulty, and all we'd be arguing about is HOW BADLY faulty. And that would be a wasted argument.
Sounds good to me.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:20 pm
by phyllo
AI Overview
While not every single boat leaks, it is very common for boats—especially older, riveted aluminum, or wooden vessels—to take on a small, manageable amount of water during use. Known as "seepage," this is often considered normal, but significant water accumulation is not, and it should be addressed.
Common Causes: Water often enters through worn-out drain plug O-rings, rivets that have loosened over time, faulty sealant on fittings, or rubber bellow failures on stern drives.
Aluminum/Wooden Boats: Older riveted aluminum boats and wooden boats are notorious for minor, "weeping" leaks that occur when the hull flexes.
Bilge Pumps: Most boats are designed with a bilge pump specifically to manage this minor seepage.
When to Worry: If a boat is taking on more than a small amount of water, it indicates a structural, plumbing, or seal issue that needs repair.
It is important for boat owners to monitor their bilge and know the difference between a normal, tiny amount of seepage and a concerning, increasing leak.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:24 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:20 pm
AI Overview
While not every single boat leaks, it is very common for boats—especially older, riveted aluminum, or wooden vessels—to take on a small, manageable amount of water during use. Known as "seepage," this is often considered normal, but significant water accumulation is not, and it should be addressed.
Common Causes: Water often enters through worn-out drain plug O-rings, rivets that have loosened over time, faulty sealant on fittings, or rubber bellow failures on stern drives.
Aluminum/Wooden Boats: Older riveted aluminum boats and wooden boats are notorious for minor, "weeping" leaks that occur when the hull flexes.
Bilge Pumps: Most boats are designed with a bilge pump specifically to manage this minor seepage.
When to Worry: If a boat is taking on more than a small amount of water, it indicates a structural, plumbing, or seal issue that needs repair.
It is important for boat owners to monitor their bilge and know the difference between a normal, tiny amount of seepage and a concerning, increasing leak.
I find it very interesting you would wish to defend a process you know is corrupt. I wonder what motive a person could have for wanting the corruption -- however big or small he imagined it to be -- to go unchallenged...
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:33 pm
by phyllo
I find it very interesting you would wish to defend a process you know is corrupt.
The process is not corrupt.
There are minor errors made when making up voter lists and when running elections.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:38 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:33 pm
I find it very interesting you would wish to defend a process you know is corrupt.
The process is not corrupt.
Yet you admit it is...just not TOO corrupt, because, you insist, it only allows
some non-eligible votes to be counted. (I still disagree, but I'll play along).
But what is your stake in seeing that gap not closed? I can only think of one: that you hope to see it used for some sort of corrupt leverage for a cause you wish to advance. Otherwise, there is no reason at all to countenance any corruption in the system.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:42 pm
by phyllo
Prove that the SAVE act will reduce the number of errors while not disenfranchising any legitimate citizens.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:25 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:42 pm
Prove that the SAVE act will reduce the number of errors while not disenfranchising any legitimate citizens.
Voter ID would limit the vote to one per person. Who couldn't support that? More importantly, what motive would anybody have for NOT supporting that?
85% of Americans can't think of such a motive. Can you?
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:35 pm
by phyllo
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:25 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:42 pm
Prove that the SAVE act will reduce the number of errors while not disenfranchising any legitimate citizens.
Voter ID would limit the vote to one per person. Who couldn't support that? More importantly, what motive would anybody have for NOT supporting that?
85% of Americans can't think of such a motive. Can you?
You can't prove that there are benefits, to the changes being proposed, which outweigh the drawbacks.
Nuff said.
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:49 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:25 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2026 9:42 pm
Prove that the SAVE act will reduce the number of errors while not disenfranchising any legitimate citizens.
Voter ID would limit the vote to one per person. Who couldn't support that? More importantly, what motive would anybody have for NOT supporting that?
85% of Americans can't think of such a motive. Can you?
You can't prove that there are benefits, to the changes being proposed, which outweigh the drawbacks.
The proposal is "voter ID." And the benefits are clear to everybody.
Why don't you want it? What do you get from lax voting practices?
Re: UK to lower voting age to 16
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2026 10:55 pm
by phyllo
Cost-benefit analysis, please.
