Philosophy Now Forum

I'm just saying, you can relax if you want. You can focus on enjoying yourself rather than protesting injustices - unless protesting is what you enjoy. If it is, keep doing that.

Don't spend your life miserable if there's another option though.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:03 pm I'm just saying, you can relax if you want. You can focus on enjoying yourself rather than protesting injustices - unless protesting is what you enjoy. If it is, keep doing that.

Don't spend your life miserable if there's another option though.

Or perhaps just be miserable about something less serious than global destruction.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 12:04 pm I don't necessarily think these stories are all recycled. They could be thought up independently many different times. Floods happen everywhere in the world, and they're always biblically terrible events for primitive societies (and often biblically terrible for advanced societies as well). It's no surprise, I think, that its a shared experience world-wide from which big myths emerge.

Sure, to some degree. But I think more along the lines below as expressed well by Promethean, and it seems ridiculous that religions and their books are not recognized as distorted/reworked collections of older stories, which are then crafted for the purpose of furthering a particular agenda and brainwashing humankind.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 12:37 pm Oh no doubt. And not just 'the great flood', but damn near everything else in the abrahamic religions is a patchwork of myths and stories cobbled together from older stuff.

Most people don't know this becuz status-quo conservatives have controlled the narrative since they landed on Plymouth rock. So truths such as the above have to be mined to be found out, and unfortunately that's always only by a few.

But the world might come around yet, i dunno. You'll have a portion that becomes 'woke' to the fraud of Christianity, and a portion that clings even harder to it when they begin to see evidence that it's a fraud; they become even more desperate than they were before when they thought it was real. It's that attitude that nothing is worth anything unless there's a god. Fortunately this is only an expression of their own inner turmoil, weakness and failings.

I agree with all of this. The desperate clinging to the stories and beliefs... despite evolving realizations to the contrary... lead to violence because entrenched identities are at risk, and unmasking seems unbearable. And the attitude that 'nothing is worth anything unless there's a god' is so disrespectful (and divisive!) of all that is naturally good and kind and aware. So much beautiful perfection can be (and has been) appreciated and experienced by so many people without any dependence on, nor in service to, any idea (idol) of a god. It's as if theism wants to own the world... yet, all of existence is so much more than such small human notions.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:26 pm A lot of people are drawn to fantasy; it's escapism. You only have to scroll through Netlix to see what a popular distraction the supernatural and fantasy worlds are. We know it is just fictitious nonsense, but it's nice to pretend for a couple of hours. For some, however, that is not enough relief from the real world, and religion gives them permission to believe, rather than pretend. It's no good bombarding these people with facts about reality, because reality isn't what they want.

Well said!

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:21 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:26 pm A lot of people are drawn to fantasy; it's escapism. You only have to scroll through Netlix to see what a popular distraction the supernatural and fantasy worlds are. We know it is just fictitious nonsense, but it's nice to pretend for a couple of hours. For some, however, that is not enough relief from the real world, and religion gives them permission to believe, rather than pretend. It's no good bombarding these people with facts about reality, because reality isn't what they want.

Well said!

Thank you. I'm never sure I am making sense until someone confirms it.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:28 pm Thank you. I'm never sure I am making sense until someone confirms it.

You must surely be pulling my leg. Your insight and wit are too brilliant to mistake for nonsense.

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:50 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:48 am I've been a serious Zen student for several decades, so I get it. Although I did not read the link, I found the title interesting, "How Meditation Works." It would almost be like writing a piece titled, "Understanding God."

You are going to like it. It lives up to your anticipation.

It's been many, many years since I have read anything about meditation. As I am sure you understand, it's not something to ponder...only to do.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:06 am Precious and few are the moments we two can share, walker.

We’re all agents of Order working here in conjunction at Conjunction Junction to manifest the inevitable, which how that tune found its way into your noggin.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:21 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:26 pm A lot of people are drawn to fantasy; it's escapism. You only have to scroll through Netlix to see what a popular distraction the supernatural and fantasy worlds are. We know it is just fictitious nonsense, but it's nice to pretend for a couple of hours. For some, however, that is not enough relief from the real world, and religion gives them permission to believe, rather than pretend. It's no good bombarding these people with facts about reality, because reality isn't what they want.

Well said!

Religion us not "fictitious nonsense". First, it's not nonsense. Great philosophers like Acquinas demonstrate the logic and consistency of religion. Second, it's not "fictitious" -- at least if we use the word in its literary manner. "Fiction" is one literary genre; myth is a different genre, akin, perhaps, to both fiction and history, but distinct from both..

"Fiction" suggests the intentional invention of an author. Although it may be true that some few religious texts fall in this category, most do not. Myths are oral histories, passed on from generation to generation.

In addition, the modern, American conflation of religion with a belief in myth is misleading. It seems to mirror the notions of Sola Scriptura fundamentalism. For most, religion involves rituals and communities, as well as myth and the affirmation of myth. Rituals and community events are not "fictitious nonsense", whatever else they may be.

Finally, calling religion "fictitious nonsense" is not only incorrect, but rude and insulting. I wish my fellow atheists and agnostics would cease and desist.

Alexiev wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:12 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:21 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:26 pm A lot of people are drawn to fantasy; it's escapism. You only have to scroll through Netlix to see what a popular distraction the supernatural and fantasy worlds are. We know it is just fictitious nonsense, but it's nice to pretend for a couple of hours. For some, however, that is not enough relief from the real world, and religion gives them permission to believe, rather than pretend. It's no good bombarding these people with facts about reality, because reality isn't what they want.

Well said!

Religion us not "fictitious nonsense".

Finally, calling religion "fictitious nonsense" is not only incorrect, but rude and insulting. I wish my fellow atheists and agnostics would cease and desist.

Yes, there are good and reasonable elements to religion. But there are also elements that are made-up, untrue, and unhelpful. It is valuable to explore all aspects, yes?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:16 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:28 pm Thank you. I'm never sure I am making sense until someone confirms it.

You must surely be pulling my leg. Your insight and wit are too brilliant to mistake for nonsense.

Well thank you again. We could carry on like this indefinitely, if you like.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:22 pm

Yes, there are good and reasonable elements to religion. But there are also elements that are made-up, untrue, and unhelpful. It is valuable to explore all aspects, yes?

That depends on what you mean by "made-up". Oral histories (myths) are not "made-up" in the same that fiction is. Instead, they are retold (and altered slightly by the teller). Of course it is valuable to explore this process, but calling it "fictitious" or "made-up" fails to explore it in a meaningful way.

"Unhelpful"? Are modern histories to be evaluated based on whether they are "helpful"? Perhaps the heroic, quasi-historical hagiographies of the past were more inspiring and helpful than modern histories. The religious prate constantly about how helpful religion is to them. Are we to accept it for that reason?

In a sense, all histories are "untrue". That is, they are all recorded from one and only one point of view. Universal truth is, perhaps, unavailable.

One more point. We atheists believe most of what we believe for the same reason religious people believe what they believe: because people we trust tell us it is true. We believe the world is round, the sun is 93 million miles distant, etc, etc. on the fairh of the authorities we trust.

Alexiev wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:12 pm Finally, calling religion "fictitious nonsense" is not only incorrect, but rude and insulting. I wish my fellow atheists and agnostics would cease and desist.

The climate is apparently going haywire. We're on the verge of destruction of ourselves and millions of other species. Apparently, according to some, there's nothing we can realistically do about it. If that is correct, then I don't see where religion is anything but "fictitious nonsense". I've seen as many articles in my news feed about ways all life on Earth could be destroyed (from solar disasters to super volcanoes here on Earth) as I've seen news about the war in Ukraine. Occasionally, there's an article that won't lead a person to severe depression. But if it's true, then it's true. Some even say there are equations that point to the entire universe possibly being one big black hole.

Religion is either "fictitious nonsense" or God is the most hideous monster possible. I'd rather embrace the former. But maybe I'm wrong.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:44 pm

Alexiev wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:12 pm Finally, calling religion "fictitious nonsense" is not only incorrect, but rude and insulting. I wish my fellow atheists and agnostics would cease and desist.

The climate is apparently going haywire. We're on the verge of destruction of ourselves and millions of other species. Apparently, according to some, there's nothing we can realistically do about it. If that is correct, then I don't see where religion is anything but "fictitious nonsense". I've seen as many articles in my news feed about ways all life on Earth could be destroyed (from solar disasters to super volcanoes here on Earth) as I've seen news about the war in Ukraine. Occasionally, there's an article that won't lead a person to severe depression. But if it's true, then it's true. Some even say there are equations that point to the entire universe possibly being one big black hole.

Religion is either "fictitious nonsense" or God is the most hideous monster possible. I'd rather embrace the former. But maybe I'm wrong.

Your "either. - or" scenario is egomaniacal. Why should a transcendant God care about the disasters you mention? They may seem horrible to you, but God (if there is one) created a world in which all living things die. From an eternal perspective, why is death in war or tsunami worse than death from old age? For all we know, perhaps (as the Christans believe) God is calling us Home.

This may be hard for you to fathom, but perhaps God works in mysterious ways, and perhaps your notions of what is Good and Bad are misguided, ignorant, or incorrect. Yes, the sun will eventually burn out and life on Earth as we know it will cease. Sorry. Perhaps life on earth is not the be all and end all of universal and transcendant benifecence.

Alexiev wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:44 pm

Alexiev wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:12 pm Finally, calling religion "fictitious nonsense" is not only incorrect, but rude and insulting. I wish my fellow atheists and agnostics would cease and desist.

The climate is apparently going haywire. We're on the verge of destruction of ourselves and millions of other species. Apparently, according to some, there's nothing we can realistically do about it. If that is correct, then I don't see where religion is anything but "fictitious nonsense". I've seen as many articles in my news feed about ways all life on Earth could be destroyed (from solar disasters to super volcanoes here on Earth) as I've seen news about the war in Ukraine. Occasionally, there's an article that won't lead a person to severe depression. But if it's true, then it's true. Some even say there are equations that point to the entire universe possibly being one big black hole.

Religion is either "fictitious nonsense" or God is the most hideous monster possible. I'd rather embrace the former. But maybe I'm wrong.

Your "either. - or" scenario is egomaniacal.

I'm sorry, it's the best I can do at this point.