Wonkers and Israel

[Sculptor]

Whilst it is difficult to hear the Ambassador not immediately condemn the Hamas attack, listen to the rest of the interview and absorb what he is saying; as the water and electricity, and food supplies are cut off and Israeli bombs rain down on the innocent people of Palestine ignored for decades.

https://www.tiktok.com/@dawahrealm_/vid ... 9p7fcc6Ig8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZFCJ4NN4Dk

If you are not prepared to listen then you shall never understand the situation.

[Age]

And i think everyone is being a little over critical of Hamas for (allegedly) beheading babies.

Two things. I frequent 'shock sites' (so I'll never forget what the world is like)

According to this so-called "logic" here if one frequents 'churches', 'mosques', 'synagogues', or 'pubs', for example, then they could just as easily and simply say that they do 'that', so that they will never forget what 'the world' is like, as well.

and i have yet to see a single video of a baby beheading by Hamas. And on any other day these sites are overrun with videos of jihadist beheadings, so where are the videos?

Adult human beings do NOT NEED to SEE ACTUAL PROOF to BELIEVE some 'things' ARE TRUE.

Shirley they'd be eager to post them as indisputable proof that they are doing it. That's the whole point of doing it. They WANT the world to know they're doing it IF they're doing it.

Second, u guys are only counting the babies Hamas does behead, not the ones they don't. A consensus survey said in the year of 2013 there were approximately 1.3 billion babies worldwide that weren't beheaded by Hamas.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Exactly what the rapists and baby-beheaders wanted to happen. It's their doing, not Israel's. What exactly would you think Israel would do?

[Age]

But what of the beheaded babies!!!!!!... we are supposed to be outraged...
and by god, some of us do that very, very well...

but some of us don't play the outrage game...

the first victim of war is the truth...

Kropotkin

BUT the ACTUAL Truth is NEVER 'hurt', 'harmed', 'damaged', NOR 'reduced'.

Although 'you', adult human beings, TELL "yourselves" otherwise.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Whilst it is difficult to hear the Ambassador not immediately condemn the Hamas attack, listen to the rest of the interview and absorb what he is saying; as the water and electricity, and food supplies are cut off and Israeli bombs rain down on the innocent people of Palestine ignored for decades.

https://www.tiktok.com/@dawahrealm_/vid ... 9p7fcc6Ig8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZFCJ4NN4Dk

If you are not prepared to listen then you shall never understand the situation.

'Interesting' that you mention electricity, since Israel provides most of Gaza's electricity.

There are no words to describe what a sick fuck you are. Sitting there in your comfortable home, smugly justifying the systematic murder of children with 'whataboutisma'. Kindly stop being an oxygen thief.

[Alexis Jacobi]

The interview Sculptor posted is actually quite good and the argument the man presents is quite sound. What he says is that if you want Hamas to condemn itself, and do this as a public confession, that you must be consistent, and he asks the BBC interviewer to recall if he has ever, once, asked the Israelis who he has had on his show to "condemn themselves" for war crimes that Israel has committed. The answer of course is no.

We have to return again to the root of the problem: the root is that in 1948 there were events that robbed a people of their land, their sovereignty, and turned them into refugees and prisoners in their own land. This is a fact. (The root of this issue extends back farther of course to the early part of the 20th century).

So the man is in fact holding to a principled argument and, for this reason, he can be admired.

I might still decide not to care about the Palestinian plight (speaking theoretically), and I might choose to take the side of, for example, Walker in a thoroughly wishy-washy pseudo-moral position which cannot sustain itself when interrogated, and align with Power and the Israeli side of the issue.

But I would like to point out what I view as a substantial core in what we see unfolding: today there are articles in the Times which describe how retaliatory measures are being taken against the NYU students who signed a document condemning Israel as the original instigator. Alan Dershowitz named Ryna Workman (a Black NYU student) and made it clear that he could focus attention on her for her wrongthink.

You are going to witness an aggressive campaign that seeks to condemn anyone who does not see these issues as they *should* be seen by *truly moral people*. [Examine in this context Veggie's arguments which are simply condemnatory for refusal to agree to see things as she does -- though she is completely ignorant of the issues and the history].

And I submit that this really is an Orwellian issue. Power is defining what is the right way, the sole moral way, to view the issues. It is not a question of your choice, or of your discrimination, or your skill in analysis, but rather your statements, what you must think and say, are determined by powerful interests who demonstrate that they can control and mold the discourse.

If you do not think right you will suffer. That is the personal aspect. The other side of this is that huge powers are gearing up their war-machine and structuring a war-aim argument for the war they intend to foment. Iran? Russia? China? They are all guilty.

We witness *ideological war* and we have to ask: Who has the power to enforce this level of control over what people think and say?

From where I sit what I see is the following: Israel and those who explain and defend it wield a narrative. It is based at the most essential point on a rehearsal of the biblical narrative of God-empowered and righteous people *taking what is theirs* when they took over Palestine. The core narrative has to do with its *rightness* and with its *justice*. I would say that this belief, then, operates on a metaphysical plane. If you subscribe to the metaphysics, and in this sense to the Story, it doesn't really mater much that the physical or historical facts do not coincide with the action your belief allows you to take.

This is, again in essence, what the Israeli and the Christian Zionist position is really based in. So it seems to me that it is, in truth, a repeat of the biblical story of the conquest of the Canaan lands. The core justification is metaphysical. And because the biblical story is mentioned, one must also mention a corollary that is part-and-parcel of it:

“In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the Lord your God has commanded you.”

It might seem like a stretch to draw this corollary but I do not think it is.

At a base level what this means is that you don't have to be concerned for the *injustice* or the *crime* committed since what you are doing is ordained on a metaphysical level.

[Walker]

Exactly what the rapists and baby-beheaders wanted to happen. It's their doing, not Israel's. What exactly would you think Israel would do?

There is now chatter about “proportional response,” for Israel. The oxymoronic “fair war” concept. The US media is creating an expectation of proportional response by Israel, which is how to maintain the forever wars. Many of the news accounts now include a running body count. The body count is currently 1300 for each side. Not for long will it be so proportional.

Israel is going to kill a lot more because Hamas is embedded in the civilian population, using human shields rather than protect the population.

If Israel was to actually respond proportionally, they would need to do what the terrorist do. They would need to specifically target civilians, drag civilians from their homes, torture, babies, children, women, elderly, rape, killing entire families in ways as brutal as they can imagine, corrupting civilization as perversely as they can manage.

In fact, this is the evil hope of all those surrounding tribes that hate Israel, because they have always been using the Palestinians as fodder for propaganda.

[Walker]

Walker ..., and a lot of words.

You're getting lost in the weeds while studying the leaves.

Here's the root that clarifies.

Jew haters want to exterminate Israel, and Jews.
That is the motive driving the hate against Israel, and Jews.
They have been indoctrinated since childhood to hate Jews.

Israel warriors say ... Never Again. And for good reason, obviously.

Israel is guilty of committing self-defense, however, it is their human right to be so guilty.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Israel is going to kill a lot more because Hamas is embedded in the civilian population, using human shields rather than protect the population.

Sorry (to a degree) to focus on you Walker. But my stated interest is *to see clearly* and the *understand* above and beyond my partisan perspectives or desires. I see your political position as reflecting deep confusion. Your position has little consistency. In this sense you reflect the American population or a certain sector of it. You are being and you will be manipulated to serve their ends.

That is what happens in wars of propaganda.

I do understand that Hamas is a political organization within Gaza. It has a high level of support but not total support. But it is, right now, a governing structure. So the language of Hamas soldiers *embedding* within the population is problematic.

The entire Gaza population is opposed to Israel and the conditions that have been imposed against the entire strip. So it is more accurate to say that the majority of the population is involved in resistance.

Since that is the case, and since now there seems to be unfolding a war that is far more total against Gaza, the population itself is in fact the enemy.

And this is the language that is now being used. A total war against *animals*.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Here's the root that clarifies.

Jew haters want to exterminate Israel, and Jews.
That is the motive driving the hate against Israel, and Jews.
They have been indoctrinated since childhood to hate Jews.

Israel warriors say ... Never Again. And for good reason, obviously.

No. What you *clarify* is a specific narrative construct.

Israel is set, and has been set from the start, in recovering and controlling all the land within the present map of Israel. They continue, bit by bit, to infringe on the territories of the West Bank by establishing settlements there.



The hatred of the Zionist occupation is distinct from hatred of Jews. Prior to 1948 and the previous decades Jews lived peacefully in the region. It is the the establishment of the Zionist State, and the corralling of hundreds of thousands into reservations that created the problem. As it would anywhere: those actions inspire hatred.

Therefore, the motive of the Palestinians and the hatred they feel is not equatable to European antisemitism. There are points of intersection however. And there is a growing movement in the Occident which is Israel-critical and also Jewish-critical. These things have to be looked at directly and also fairly. Not all criticism is antisemitism. Except as many Israelis and some Jews see it.

To say they are *taught to hate* is a strange assertion. As if they would not feel what they feel, not see what they see, not react to life under a military occupation as they indeed do -- unless they were *taught* to do so.

In fact they *hate* as anyone in a similar situation will naturally hate the one they understand to be the source of their oppression.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Interesting how 'hate' has become a big 'no no' in wonkerdom. No one is 'allowed' to openly admit that they hate anyone. This is referred to as a 'hate crime'. Yet the same clueless, conceited clowns are fine with 'inferior brown' people hating to their heart's content. In fact it's excused and encouraged, as everyone has seen on this one thread.They are too cowardly to admit that they just hate Jews, so they hide behind ridiculous maps and altered history (if they even bother to spend a single second looking up any history at all. Most don't).
We are all excpected to love and have compassion for child-murdering, woman-hating bastards.
Well kindly go fuck yourselves. No one tells me who I can and can't hate.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Very pretty, but what does that have to do with slaughtering babies??

[vegetariantaxidermy]

"Jews will not replace us" —White Supremacists at the Unite the Right rally, Charlottesville
"Gas the Jews" —Palestinian Supremacists rally celebrating Hamas murder of Jews, Sydney Australia
If you go far enough to the Left you end up on the far end of the Right''

Michael Shermer


The so-called 'far left' (i.e. The world of Wonkerdom) has ALWAYS had far more in common with the far right that ANYTHING to do with the so-called 'left' (which is really simply a collection of policies that are common to evolved, enlightened societies).

[iambiguous]

"Jews will not replace us" —White Supremacists at the Unite the Right rally, Charlottesville
"Gas the Jews" —Palestinian Supremacists rally celebrating Hamas murder of Jews, Sydney Australia
If you go far enough to the Left you end up on the far end of the Right''

Michael Shermer


The so-called 'far left' (i.e. The world of Wonkerdom) has ALWAYS had far more in common with the far right that ANYTHING to do with the so-called 'left' (which is really simply a collection of policies that are common to evolved, enlightened societies).

Far left.
Far right.

What do they share in common? Objectivism of course.

And yet the irony [for me] is that what they both share in common with vegetariantaxidermy and her ilk here [left and right] is the ever so truculent, contemptuous "my way or the highway" mentality.

VT often seethes with outrage at those who do not think about, well, everything under the sun, exactly as she does.

What's behind that?

You know, just out of curiosity.

[Iwannaplato]

"Jews will not replace us" —White Supremacists at the Unite the Right rally, Charlottesville
"Gas the Jews" —Palestinian Supremacists rally celebrating Hamas murder of Jews, Sydney Australia
If you go far enough to the Left you end up on the far end of the Right''

Michael Shermer


The so-called 'far left' (i.e. The world of Wonkerdom) has ALWAYS had far more in common with the far right that ANYTHING to do with the so-called 'left' (which is really simply a collection of policies that are common to evolved, enlightened societies).

Far left.
Far right.

What do they share in common? Objectivism of course.

And yet the irony [for me] is that what they both share in common with vegetariantaxidermy and her ilk here [left and right] is the ever so truculent, contemptuous "my way or the highway" mentality.

VT often seethes with outrage at those who do not think about, well, everything under the sun, exactly as she does.

What's behind that?

You know, just out of curiosity.

And middle of the road people who think that people who get outraged are simply wrong to get outraged share something common with the far left and far right: objectivism.

And the middle of road people who think both extremes are wrong share something in common with those extremes: objectivism.

Lack of outrage nor place on the spectrum of political positions determine obejctivism

You can value compromise, nuanced positions, accepting that others have differing moral and political positions...and be an objectivist.

Just as what is not included in your post indicates your objectivism. Just as the way you talk about VT indicates your objectivism.' Her way of being is so wrong that it leads to a call to psychoanalyze her. Some other objectivist, quite as certain that politeness, and a wider range in the middle of the spectrum are the superior positions, but that this last is best not said...not so worthy of calls for psychoanalysis.

Another irony.

And yes, I know you deny thinking your position is objectively right.

Acts like a duck, walks like a duck, has been trained to with some regularly quack that it is not a duck. That quack might be correct. Or it might simply be an ideal.