Philosophy Now Forum

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:49 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:45 am People who believe in radical free will are usually more right wing. They show a complete lack of understanding for mitigating circumstances, and regard prison as a holding pen for willfully recidivistic criminals, rather than an opportunity to rehabilitate and make corrections to behaviour for the benefit of society. THe implication of free will is that no matter the cause, not matter the experience a person has absolute free will to commit crimes by pure choice uninfluenced by deterrence, or necessity. SO prisons cannot be about reform, they can only be holding pens.
This is one reason why the US, a country obsessed with Free will, has the world's largest prison populations. and are more or less cages to incarcerate.

By contrast the Scandinavian model which is more about rehab, has some of the lowest repeat offenses

The term "radical free will" may help some Americans to understand. What I don't understand is that while the US has great universities and some of the most intelligent individuals, the US population as a whole is so ignorant about the "radical" nature of free will, and ordinary people lack insight into their own biases.
I have read one explanation of the historical cause that affects only Americans.

The bold or desperate people who colonised the American west did so after the east coast had become settled and developed. The new generation of colonists who moved west resented controls and debts owed to the people in the developed parts who had partly financed the colonists. The eastern states have remained more intellectually developed and traditional resentment towards intellectualism persists among mid US states.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:22 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:49 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:45 am People who believe in radical free will are usually more right wing. They show a complete lack of understanding for mitigating circumstances, and regard prison as a holding pen for willfully recidivistic criminals, rather than an opportunity to rehabilitate and make corrections to behaviour for the benefit of society. THe implication of free will is that no matter the cause, not matter the experience a person has absolute free will to commit crimes by pure choice uninfluenced by deterrence, or necessity. SO prisons cannot be about reform, they can only be holding pens.
This is one reason why the US, a country obsessed with Free will, has the world's largest prison populations. and are more or less cages to incarcerate.

By contrast the Scandinavian model which is more about rehab, has some of the lowest repeat offenses

The term "radical free will" may help some Americans to understand. What I don't understand is that while the US has great universities and some of the most intelligent individuals, the US population as a whole is so ignorant about the "radical" nature of free will, and ordinary people lack insight into their own biases.
I have read one explanation of the historical cause that affects only Americans.

The bold or desperate people who colonised the American west did so after the east coast had become settled and developed. The new generation of colonists who moved west resented controls and debts owed to the people in the developed parts who had partly financed the colonists. The eastern states have remained more intellectually developed and traditional resentment towards intellectualism persists among mid US states.

This is logical. I wonder if being close to both the east and west coasts made people more open to new ideas that came in through international trade.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:50 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:20 am

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:13 pm

You speak as a compatibilist but claim to be a determinist. I think you're close to realizing you're a free will.

Do you believe evolution could ever occur if people had free will? Do you have any concept how catastrophic it would be for the evolution of species if free will could somehow thwart the natural selection-based process of evolution? If free will existed, you wouldn't be here.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:00 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:20 am

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:13 pm

You speak as a compatibilist but claim to be a determinist. I think you're close to realizing you're a free will.

Henry, excluding Free Will, can you look for all the reasons for why you made some specific decision ?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:14 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:40 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:31 amCan you accept the fact that all organisms are reactive creatures in that they do not ACT but only react?

I know, as fact: man, every man, any man, is a free will. He acts.

And you know it too.

Henry,
Then give me one example where behavior could not possibly be termed a reaction, two would be nice but I'll settle for one.---lol!!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:45 am People who believe in radical free will are usually more right wing. They show a complete lack of understanding for mitigating circumstances, and regard prison as a holding pen for willfully recidivistic criminals, rather than an opportunity to rehabilitate and make corrections to behaviour for the benefit of society. THe implication of free will is that no matter the cause, not matter the experience a person has absolute free will to commit crimes by pure choice uninfluenced by deterrence, or necessity. SO prisons cannot be about reform, they can only be holding pens.
This is one reason why the US, a country obsessed with Free will, has the world's largest prison populations. and are more or less cages to incarcerate.

By contrast the Scandinavian model which is more about rehab, has some of the lowest repeat offenses

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:29 am The free willist believes he is accountable for what he does. The buck stops with him (no matter his circumstance or his apparent lack of say-so in a circumstance). At his best he's just; at his worst he's compassionless.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:07 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:00 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:20 am

You speak as a compatibilist but claim to be a determinist. I think you're close to realizing you're a free will.

Henry, excluding Free Will, can you look for all the reasons for why you made some specific decision ?

If I exclude myself, as a free will, then there's no deciding, so: no, I can't.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:24 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:45 am People who believe in radical free will are usually more right wing. They show a complete lack of understanding for mitigating circumstances, and regard prison as a holding pen for willfully recidivistic criminals, rather than an opportunity to rehabilitate and make corrections to behaviour for the benefit of society. THe implication of free will is that no matter the cause, not matter the experience a person has absolute free will to commit crimes by pure choice uninfluenced by deterrence, or necessity. SO prisons cannot be about reform, they can only be holding pens.
This is one reason why the US, a country obsessed with Free will, has the world's largest prison populations. and are more or less cages to incarcerate.

By contrast the Scandinavian model which is more about rehab, has some of the lowest repeat offenses

You're not completely wrong.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:29 am The free willist believes he is accountable for what he does. The buck stops with him (no matter his circumstance or his apparent lack of say-so in a circumstance). At his best he's just; at his worst he's compassionless.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:48 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:24 pm

So do you think the rules of cause and effect are magically different for Americans, and that Scandinavians are more susceptible to the laws of necessity that Americans have somehow managed to escape?
Or is it the case the Universal Laws of Nature apply universally and the Scandinavians are just smarter than Americans?

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:15 pmI understand.

What if you and a friend choose to watch the same television programme at the same time in a room together. You each have your reasons for choosing that television programme. One of your reasons for your choice is you yourself are a free will . Then you discover your friend does not believe in free will. How then could you account for both of you making the same choice?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:48 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:24 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:45 am People who believe in radical free will are usually more right wing. They show a complete lack of understanding for mitigating circumstances, and regard prison as a holding pen for willfully recidivistic criminals, rather than an opportunity to rehabilitate and make corrections to behaviour for the benefit of society. THe implication of free will is that no matter the cause, not matter the experience a person has absolute free will to commit crimes by pure choice uninfluenced by deterrence, or necessity. SO prisons cannot be about reform, they can only be holding pens.
This is one reason why the US, a country obsessed with Free will, has the world's largest prison populations. and are more or less cages to incarcerate.

By contrast the Scandinavian model which is more about rehab, has some of the lowest repeat offenses

You're not completely wrong.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:29 am The free willist believes he is accountable for what he does. The buck stops with him (no matter his circumstance or his apparent lack of say-so in a circumstance). At his best he's just; at his worst he's compassionless.

So do you think the rules of cause and effect are magically different for Americans, and that Scandinavians are more susceptible to the laws of necessity that Americans have somehow managed to escape?
Or is it the case the Universal Laws of Nature apply universally and the Scandinavians are just smarter than Americans?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:29 am The free willist believes he is accountable for what he does. The buck stops with him (no matter his circumstance or his apparent lack of say-so in a circumstance). At his best he's just; at his worst he's compassionless.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:24 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:48 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:24 pm

You're not completely wrong.

So do you think the rules of cause and effect are magically different for Americans, and that Scandinavians are more susceptible to the laws of necessity that Americans have somehow managed to escape?
Or is it the case the Universal Laws of Nature apply universally and the Scandinavians are just smarter than Americans?

All I commented on was...

People who believe in radical free will are usually more right wing. They show a complete lack of understanding for mitigating circumstances, and regard prison as a holding pen for willfully recidivistic criminals, rather than an opportunity to rehabilitate and make corrections to behaviour for the benefit of society. THe implication of free will is that no matter the cause, not matter the experience a person has absolute free will to commit crimes by pure choice uninfluenced by deterrence, or necessity.

...sayin' You're not completely wrong.

I even self-quoted...

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:29 am The free willist believes he is accountable for what he does. The buck stops with him (no matter his circumstance or his apparent lack of say-so in a circumstance). At his best he's just; at his worst he's compassionless.

I said nuthin' at all about America or Scandinavia.

Next time I'll snip out your crap so I don't confuse you with my response.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:54 pmYou might want to take a chill pill bro!

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:21 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:14 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:40 am

I know, as fact: man, every man, any man, is a free will. He acts.

And you know it too.

Henry,
Then give me one example where behavior could not possibly be termed a reaction, two would be nice but I'll settle for one.---lol!!

Nice try, guy.

Pretty sure any example I give, no matter how I ground it, will be interpreted, by you, as reaction.

So: I'll pass. I'm willin' to tussle, but I've had my fill of dancin'. biggy, who is an expert at dancin' (interpreting) will accommodate you

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 3:21 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:14 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:40 am

I know, as fact: man, every man, any man, is a free will. He acts.

And you know it too.

Henry,
Then give me one example where behavior could not possibly be termed a reaction, two would be nice but I'll settle for one.---lol!!

Nice try, guy.

Pretty sure any example I give, no matter how I ground it, will be interpreted, by you, as reaction.

So: I'll pass. I'm willin' to tussle, but I've had my fill of dancin'. biggy, who is an expert at dancin' (interpreting) will accommodate you