Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:01 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 4:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 3:42 pm
Did you miss my earlier explanations?

Free will requires that we face, at least one time, an alternate possibility.

We don't necessarily have to choose that possibility, if we freely decide not to; but if we do choose it, it comes with consequences. But free will is possible by no other means.

So free will is a product of our experience with the possibility of the Fall. And unfortunately for us, we took the wrong option. Nevertheless, God has stepped in to reverse that, if we will use our free will to agree that He should, on our behalf. But He will not rob us of our free will, either way.

Is that clear? What am I not making clear to you in that explanation?

Think of a scenario like this: God creates Adam and Eve and give them a vision of Heaven and Hell and let them choose.

Okay, let's imagine that.

You said that no rational person chooses Hell.

I didn't, actually. I said no such thing. I certainly don't believe it.

In fact, I believe that people often reason their way to Hell. They reason thusly: there is no God, no objective morality, and no ultimate truth; therefore, I can carry on my life as I see fit, so long as I can get away with anything.

If the first premise ("there is no God") is true, then the rest follows with perfect rational consistency, in fact.

Good thing the first premise is false.

But there's a deeper problem with your imaginary scenario, too. That is, that God doesn't merely care who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. If that's all that mattered, He could plausibly do what you say. But it's not.

What God cares about is your freedom to enter into a relationship of friendship love with Him....uncoerced. So that means there has to be a period of time when not only do you have the choices of Heaven or Hell, but when these two choices also seem possible and reasonable.

That's why it would be nonsense for me to say I have a "free choice" to beat myself into unconsciousness with a hammer. The fact is, I'm never going to choose that anyway, so it's just not a live option. There really isn't a choice to be made, anymore; and my will is not even called for. Being beaten into unconsciousness with a hammer, by my own hand, is not in any way attractive to me -- it isn't a thing I'd entertain for a second. The alternative is so much more pleasant, I'm certain to choose it before the (phony) choice is even offered.

So this world has the following: enough reasons in it to believe in God, and enough excuses to avoid doing so. It has some attractions offered by the thought of loving God, but just as many offered by the prospect of loving only myself. I hover between two choices, then, that at first glance (though only then) look equal. And I get to choose.

If I care enough to think deeply about it, my choice of God is going to become increasingly obvious, it's true. Who would refuse Heaven, supposing one could see it now. But if I refuse to think about it, I can pacify my anxieties and preen myself indefinitely with ideas like, "I am the captain of my fate / I am the master of my soul." And that will keep me sufficiently self-pleased to avoid any thought of God or Heaven. I can will myself right into Hell, if I want.

In fact, that latter option, the option of worshipping myself and giving no thought to God, is so attractive to the human psyche that the majority of people do it. Jesus said that would be so. He said, “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matt. 7:13-14).

So there are more than enough reasons to believe, and enough reasons to disbelieve, as well. The difference between the two is the depth and sincerity of the search with which one looks for God. For as He promises, "...you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jer. 29:13)

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:36 pm Ok, so we need time to fall in love with God.

Why God did not create each individual in Paradise and give him/her a chance and time to love or hate God.

Why do we have to live in a state of misery here?

Why do we have to pay for our parents' faults?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:36 pm Ok, so we need time to fall in love with God.

I said no such thing.

What? "Fall in love with God?" How messed up is that thinking! "We need time"? I never mentioned any role of "time" at all.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm

Why God did not create each individual in Paradise and give him/her a chance and time to love or hate God.

You need to read my last answer. Clearly, you did not. It fully answered this question.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm

Why do we have to live in a state of misery here?

You're living in a state of misery?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm

Why do we have to pay for our parents' faults?

You don't. You have your own, I'm sure. We all do.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:36 pm Ok, so we need time to fall in love with God.

I said no such thing.

What? "Fall in love with God?" How messed up is that thinking! "We need time"? I never mentioned any role of "time" at all.

You talk about time in here: "What God cares about is your freedom to enter into a relationship of friendship love with Him....uncoerced. So that means there has to be a period of time when not only do you have the choices of Heaven or Hell, but when these two choices also seem possible and reasonable."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm
You need to read my last answer. Clearly, you did not. It fully answered this question.

Which part?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm
You're living in a state of misery?

Yes, I do. And I am sure there are many peoples who feel the same.

...we are sinful. That is why we are here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:06 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm
I said no such thing.

What? "Fall in love with God?" How messed up is that thinking! "We need time"? I never mentioned any role of "time" at all.

You talk about time in here: "What God cares about is your freedom to enter into a relationship of friendship love with Him....uncoerced. So that means there has to be a period of time when not only do you have the choices of Heaven or Hell, but when these two choices also seem possible and reasonable."

Ah, "a period of time." I see. The mention was so incidental and below importance I did not even recall mentioning it.

No, I did not mean that one "needs time to fall in love." I only meant that there must be "an interval in which certain conditions apply." The conditions are the important thing: the amount of time is whatever the wisdom of God requires us to have.

"Time" qua time, itself does nothing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 6:06 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm
You need to read my last answer. Clearly, you did not. It fully answered this question.

Which part?

The whole thing was devoted to responding carefully and sequentially to your question.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm
You're living in a state of misery?

Yes, I do. And I am sure there are many peoples who feel the same.

What's wrong? Have you no joys, pleasures, successes or occasions of happiness?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 5:46 pm

...we are sinful. That is why we are here.

That's not why we're here. But it is why "here" is in the state it currently is.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 9:36 pm What is the purpose of waiting? People are suffering around the globe. Which kind of wisdom is that?

Yes, I do. And I am sure there are many peoples who feel the same.

What's wrong? Have you no joys, pleasures, successes or occasions of happiness?

Life is simply meaningless to me so every moment of it is harsh. No need to tell you all the personal problems I have.

Yes, we are here because Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 9:36 pm What is the purpose of waiting? People are suffering around the globe. Which kind of wisdom is that?

The Bible answers that question, too:

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

That's why.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm

What's wrong? Have you no joys, pleasures, successes or occasions of happiness?

Life is simply meaningless to me so every moment of it is harsh. No need to tell you all the personal problems I have.

I accept your statement that your life is hard. And "meaningless" life is the worst of all. Some people do think that's what it is, of course.

But life is not meaningless. That's what God is telling us. It has meaning, and it has purpose, and it has an outcome, too. This is not the end of the story.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm

Yes, we are here because Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

That's not it. Actually, we are here because God wanted us to exist. God loves us. He made us, and wanted there to be people like us. As hard as you may find that to believe, it's true. God didn't make a mistake when He made you.

We are suffering because both our ancestors and we are out of relationship with God, every one of us looking to his own interests. As Isaiah says,
"All of us, like sheep, have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all To fall on Him." (Isaiah 53:6)

But here's the good news: the wrongdoing we've done, the penalty for that, has fallen on the Son of God Himself, so that we might be forgiven and freed from it. That is, if that is a deal we will accept. If we don't want it, it will not be forced upon us; but it is freely offered.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 9:36 pm What is the purpose of waiting? People are suffering around the globe. Which kind of wisdom is that?

The Bible answers that question, too:

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

That's why.

For God's sake, that is not a reason.

Life neither has meaning nor real purpose.

And now Jesus who suffered and died on the cross for our sins! Couldn't God simply forgive?

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:33 pmFor God's sake, that is not a reason.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:45 pmIt's for your sake.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:45 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm
The Bible answers that question, too:

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

That's why.

For God's sake, that is not a reason.

It's for your sake.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:45 pm

Life neither has meaning nor real purpose.

Do you mean, "...for me," or are you aiming to speak on behalf of everyone?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:45 pm

And now Jesus who suffered and died on the cross for our sins! Couldn't God simply forgive?

Not and be righteous. When evil has been done, the scales must be balanced again...one way, or the other. Things gone wrong must be set right.

And isn't that what you're saying as well, in another way? You seem to be wanting us to perceive life as somehow unfair or harsh. But if it is, don't you want something done about that? Don't you think something needs to be done about that?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 3:43 pm It is for my sake to suffer and be in state of confusion?

I have never seen a single peroson who cliam to know what is the meaning of life.

Yes, there are a lots of thing that need adjusment on Earth.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 3:43 pm It is for my sake to suffer and be in state of confusion?

No. It is for your sake that God has made a way you don't have to.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm

I have never seen a single peroson who cliam to know what is the meaning of life.

I would say the opposite. I would say I've met too many people for whom the "meaning of life" is something pathetic and unworthy. But nobody can live, or make any decisions at all, without at least taking for granted subconsiously that there's some "meaning" or direction that life should go.

Even you...consider that you've already decided that "suffering and confusion" are indicators of something being out of order. But how can you assume such a thing, unless you also have some sense of what "in order" would look like? So you have something back there, in the back of your mind. And I encourage you to tell yourself what it actually is. Because you'll find it's at the core of your sense of "confusion" there. It's what makes your intuition of "confusion" even possible.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm As you say,

Yes, there are a lots of thing that need adjusment on Earth.

To know that, you must be referencing some concept of "what should be."

Have you ever thought that through, and seen what it would entail?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 3:43 pm It is for my sake to suffer and be in state of confusion?

No. It is for your sake that God has made a way you don't have to.

But I have to. There is no way for me to get rid of suffering or confusion.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm

I have never seen a single peroson who cliam to know what is the meaning of life.

I would say the opposite. I would say I've met too many people for whom the "meaning of life" is something pathetic and unworthy. But nobody can live, or make any decisions at all, without at least taking for granted subconsiously that there's some "meaning" or direction that life should go.

Even you...consider that you've already decided that "suffering and confusion" are indicators of something being out of order. But how can you assume such a thing, unless you also have some sense of what "in order" would look like? So you have something back there, in the back of your mind. And I encourage you to tell yourself what it actually is. Because you'll find it's at the core of your sense of "confusion" there. It's what makes your intuition of "confusion" even possible.

Thanks, I am aware of my suffering and ignorance. But what is the solution for it?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm As you say,

Yes, there are a lots of thing that need adjusment on Earth.

To know that, you must be referencing some concept of "what should be."

Have you ever thought that through, and seen what it would entail?

I cannot change people mind set so I cannot help the situation. I know that the right education is needed for children since it is very hard to change mind of an adult.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 10:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm
No. It is for your sake that God has made a way you don't have to.

But I have to. There is no way for me to get rid of suffering or confusion.

There is, actually.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm
I would say the opposite. I would say I've met too many people for whom the "meaning of life" is something pathetic and unworthy. But nobody can live, or make any decisions at all, without at least taking for granted subconsiously that there's some "meaning" or direction that life should go.

Even you...consider that you've already decided that "suffering and confusion" are indicators of something being out of order. But how can you assume such a thing, unless you also have some sense of what "in order" would look like? So you have something back there, in the back of your mind. And I encourage you to tell yourself what it actually is. Because you'll find it's at the core of your sense of "confusion" there. It's what makes your intuition of "confusion" even possible.

Thanks, I am aware of my suffering and ignorance. But what is the solution for it?

The solution to ignorance? Well, that's always knowledge of something, isn't it? And the solution to suffering? It's meaningfulness...for we can not only stand to suffer more if we know why we are suffering, but actually will run toward suffering if necessary, if the reasons given for us to do so are adequate to us.

So what you need is a set of answers to your questions, and a reason to think that there's meaning in suffering.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 5:20 pm As you say,

To know that, you must be referencing some concept of "what should be."

Have you ever thought that through, and seen what it would entail?

I cannot change people mind set so I cannot help the situation. I know that the right education is needed for children since it is very hard to change mind of an adult.

That's not quite my question.

I was wondering this: if you say things are "wrong," in some sense (too much ignorance and suffering, for example), you must have in the back of your mind what "right" would look more like (like maybe "less ignorance and no suffering," or something, though of course it would need to involve more than those mere negatives, wouldn't it?). So have you ever told yourself what this picture you're carring around in the back of your mind would consist of?

In short, how would a "right" world look?