Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:32 pm
No.
I asked Bahman, not you.
I wondered how he coud sustain the idea of a mind that can make a choice yet is immutable.
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An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
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Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:18 pm
I asked Bahman, not you.
I wondered how he coud sustain the idea of a mind that can make a choice yet is immutable.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:37 pm
Fine, no problem. I just meant there may be steps to make choices, and we still have choices and it's not all deterministic. The post I wrote is a theory for mechanics of choice with a non deterministic step.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:50 pm
Nature does constrain the mind when it comes to the availability of options, one can choose an option that is permissible so-called freedom of will and cannot choose otherwise. But the mind is free to choose between available options so-called free will.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:20 pm
For what regards the decision, my mind just does it therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind. Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind. They are not reducible to anything else so you cannot say that experiencing is the result of the matter process. The matter process however is needed to form Qualia which can be experienced by the mind. The decision also is not reducible to anything else such as the matter process although the matter process is needed to experience and realize the situation. The same for causation.
I have to add that it is through making a free decision that we can resolve a situation where there is a conflict of interest within. A deterministic (how matter behaves) system cannot resolve any conflict of interest. That is why the free decision is not reducible to anything such as the matter process.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:57 pm
JUST DOES IT???
That is your argument?
Completely capricious? No judgement? No assessment? No weighing up the pros and cons??
therefore there are no steps involved in it since making a decision is an ability of the mind.
Really?
I know your thinking is not as sharp as some, but this might explain why you never make sense.
So. No. In fact is does not "Just do it"Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind.
In fact the decsion is effected by weighing the causes. The mind literally determines the answer by the examination of all the options?
This is a "process".
They are not reducible to anything else so you cannot say that experiencing is the result of the matter process. The matter process however is needed to form Qualia which can be experienced by the mind. The decision also is not reducible to anything else such as the matter process although the matter process is needed to experience and realize the situation. The same for causation.
I have to add that it is through making a free decision that we can resolve a situation where there is a conflict of interest within. A deterministic (how matter behaves) system cannot resolve any conflict of interest. That is why the free decision is not reducible to anything such as the matter process.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:01 pm
LOL There are ALWAYS options for movement of the body. So, there ACTUALLY exists BOTH now, correct?
If this is NOT correct, then WHY?
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:28 pm
What is 'relevant' and what is 'irrelevant' is solely up to 'you'.
For example, if the cause of the man to fall is the sole reason being sought out here, then what would be decided as being relevant is 'the cause' of the man to fall.
Also, I am NOT YET seeing the relevance of your question here. Will you be more specific in regards to what, exactly, you are wanting to point out or to ascertain here?
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:29 pm
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:34 pm
Will you help us out a bit more by informing us of what discussion group and thread that post is in and on what page that post is on?
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:36 pm
So, what EXACTLY is this so-called "system", which you CLAIM can NOT have both.bahman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:50 pmNature does constrain the mind when it comes to the availability of options, one can choose an option that is permissible so-called freedom of will and cannot choose otherwise. But the mind is free to choose between available options so-called free will.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:43 pm
What do you expect? When the situation is clear for you, by knowing available options, making the proper judgment about options, assessment of options, and weighing up the pros and cons, then you are left by the decision.
These are prior to the decision.
Does the thing make sense now?
Examining the options is prior to the decision.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:38 amSo. No. In fact is does not "Just do it"Mind, however, is exposed to the options by experiencing the situation. The mind then decides and resolves the conflict of interest if there is any. Mind finally causes. These three abilities, experiencing, deciding, and causing are the abilities of the mind.
In fact the decsion is effected by weighing the causes. The mind literally determines the answer by the examination of all the options?
This is a "process".
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:46 pm
You don't read carefully. I said that you can move your body when there are options. Regardless, the movement of your body is restricted by laws of nature.
You cannot stop falling when you are falling down from a building? Could you do otherwise?
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:48 pm
Your body for example. Its motion is subjected to the laws of nature.Age wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:36 pmSo, what EXACTLY is this so-called "system", which you CLAIM can NOT have both.
Re: An Answer to the problem of "Choice or Determinism"
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:04 pm
In other words, you do NOT YET KNOW.
Also, your sentence does NOT logically follow either.
This explains NOTHING AT ALL.
The question posed to you was; Explain how your mind makes a choice... Take us through the steps!
Yet your "explanation" so far is;
Mind is exposed to options.
Mind just makes decisions.
Mind finally causes.
Which, AGAIN, is saying/explaining absolutely NOTHING AT ALL.
I suggest you learn and/or find out what the Mind is EXACTLY, FIRST, explain what the Mind IS, and then START from there.
But experiencing IS the result of the matter process. The matter actually being the senses, of the physical body, generally known as the human body.
And what AGAIN is 'the mind', and how EXACTLY does 'it' work (besides 'it just does')?
LOL You just got through "explaining" to us, only two sentences back, that 'experiencing' and 'causing' "are NOT reducible to ANY thing else" AND "so you can NOT say that 'experiencing' is the result of the matter process". But now you are saying, "although the matter process is NEEDED to 'experience' and to 'realize', the situation. The same also applies to 'causation'.
Are you able to SEE the CONTRADICTION/S here?
When you say, "within" here, what EXACTLY are you referring to?
See, to me, the ONLY situation where there is a so-called "conflict of interest" here could be 'within' 'you', human beings.
Also, what is a 'free decision', and what is that 'decision' 'free' from EXACTLY? And, what other kinds of 'decisions' are there?
Will you provide an example of a 'conflict of interest' outside of one's own thinking?
Also, if there is a so-called "deterministic system", which you say can NOT contain 'free will' or 'the mind', then what OTHER "system" could there be and what is that "system" called, to you, which is separated, and which does contain what you call "your mind" and "free decisions"?
Also, how EXACTLY are these two different and separate systems" separated, EXACTLY?
So, are you here 'trying to' suggest that 'a mind', without ANY 'matter process' AT ALL, is able to exist and make so-called "free" decisions?
If yes, then what POSSIBLE 'decision' could "this mind" make? And, what POSSIBLE influence could that 'decision' have?
OBVIOUSLY, if NO 'matter process' is NEEDED, then these "free decisions" could be made with NO 'matter' AT ALL, of which to cause 'an influence' on or over. Which is just too ABSURD to even imagine.