Philosophy Now Forum

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:14 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:45 pm

You don't believe that you're seeing a square or a circle or a somebody who is external to you, though, do you?

The only way I know about Squares and Circles is through the Representation in my Mind. You can verify with other Senses like Touch, to Feel that it is a Square or a Circle if it was more than a drawing. So there is Validation with the different Sensory Modalities, which are also Representations. If it was a matter of life and death that I could tell the difference between Squares and Circle then I would survive. That's all we really need from our Representational Detection of the World.

You believe that what you're really verifying is mental "representations" you have, though, right?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:36 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:37 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:14 pm
The only way I know about Squares and Circles is through the Representation in my Mind. You can verify with other Senses like Touch, to Feel that it is a Square or a Circle if it was more than a drawing. So there is Validation with the different Sensory Modalities, which are also Representations. If it was a matter of life and death that I could tell the difference between Squares and Circle then I would survive. That's all we really need from our Representational Detection of the World.

You believe that what you're really verifying is mental "representations" you have, though, right?

Yes, the only things you have to work with are Mental Representations. Everything you have ever known and Experienced are all Representations or Surrogates for whatever is happening in the External World. The Representations are Correlated with the External World so they are useful in helping us survive in the External World.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:43 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:37 pm

I'm just curious. Are you a Naïve Realist, aka Direct Realist? If so, what is your understanding of How we See?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:19 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:36 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:37 pm

You believe that what you're really verifying is mental "representations" you have, though, right?

Yes, the only things you have to work with are Mental Representations. Everything you have ever known and Experienced are all Representations or Surrogates for whatever is happening in the External World. The Representations are Correlated with the External World so they are useful in helping us survive in the External World.

Okay, but then all you're "verifying" is your mental content. You're not verifying anything about an external world, which you have no good reason to believe even exists.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:21 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:43 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:37 pm

I'm just curious. Are you a Naïve Realist, aka Direct Realist? If so, what is your understanding of How we See?

Yes, I'm a naive/direct realist. Ceteris paribus, we sense things as they are. We don't only sense mental phenomena. We sense the external world. Our senses are the means by which we do this. That doesn't imply that we're only sensing mental phenomena per se.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:25 pm When I Verify my Representations by a lifetime of using them I have found that they are a pretty good Representation of what the External World is like.

I have every reason to think there is an External World, because of the Consistency of my Representations over many years of usage.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:32 pm I'm trying hard to understand how a discussion about hard consciousness is related to the topic.
What ever way we might perceive - whether described as mental representations of the "real " world does not move this question forward.

We can only access our experience to address this question.

On the other Forum there is a music sharing thread. Listen to this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpcSAE7OP40
Now before I go on I am not pretending that this is written by computer, but it does highlight one of the problems with music that is not PLAYED. ASC lacks something that is not to achieved when a computer plays; it lack a human element.
When a band plays they never play exactly the same each time. The pace and tempo is different, not just from the last time they played it but also changes within the length of the song. The relationships between the musicians vary and what is harder to quantify - the mood. This involves different degrees of accenting and other forms of dynamics, unique to the performance, the artists, and the location.
For, me examples of this sort of production fail the definition of music, they are simulted music. But nothing I would want to listen to.

WHen I hear ASC and other tracks of the same kind I imagine a possibly spotty sixth former with a computer in his bedroom. To create this sort of music you would not even have to have a keyboard, and no actual playing of instruments would be necessary. All this removes it from the defining features of music.
For a computer to creatively make this music all you would have to do is delete the spotty sixth former. Not so easy.
Some attempts have been made to program a set of rules for computers to write specific types of music
eg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FxPJD0JZQo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA03iyI3yEA
On their website, it lays out the details of the AI assistent.
https://www.aiva.ai

So far this makes it easier for a human to write music.

The examples I've heard seem to be painfully derivative, and not very imaginitive.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:28 pm
But have you ever studied how your Senses work? I mean get into the Chemistry and Neural Activity of the thing.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:25 pm When I Verify my Representations by a lifetime of using them I have found that they are a pretty good Representation of what the External World is like.

Sigh.

Based on your view, you have zero knowledge if there even is an external world. Why you can't see this, who knows. It's like trying to explain it to a slug.

I have every reason to think there is an External World, because of the Consistency of my Representations over many years of usage.

The reason you have to believe that an external world would have anything whatsoever to do with "consistency of 'representations'"?

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:56 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:25 pm When I Verify my Representations by a lifetime of using them I have found that they are a pretty good Representation of what the External World is like.

Sigh.

Based on your view, you have zero knowledge if there even is an external world. Why you can't see this, who knows. It's like trying to explain it to a slug.

I have every reason to think there is an External World, because of the Consistency of my Representations over many years of usage.

The reason you have to believe that an external world would have anything whatsoever to do with "consistency of 'representations'"?

Ok, so maybe you are implying Simulations now:

From the Inter Mind website:
Even if Reality is a Simulation we obviously still have Conscious Experiences (Representations) of that Reality. So there is probably still a Conscious Mind (CM) doing the Experiencing in Conscious Space (CSp). There is probably still an Inter Mind (IM) but it would now connect the CM to the Simulation instead of to a Physical Mind (PM). There are two basic types of Simulations that we can talk about. One type is a Simulation that just runs with us being helpless observers having no ability to affect things that are happening in the Simulation. This means that all our desires, strivings, and actions are just something we experience, but we really can't do anything about anything. The Simulation makes us think we have desires and strivings and that we can do things. In this type of Simulation the CM would have no Volitional connections back to the Simulation and would only have connections from the Simulation to the IM and then to the CM. In the other type the CM can, through Volitional connections through the IM and to the Simulation, affect things in the Simulation similar to how the CM can, through the IM, affect things in Physical Space (PSp). The Simulation will make us believe we are actually in PSp, but there would be no difference for us if we were in an Actual Physical Universe or a Simulated Physical Universe. The take away from this is that it doesn't matter if the IM is connected to a PM or to a Simulation.

But it is infinitely more Coherent to think that there is an External Physical World rather than it is some sort of Elaborate Simulation of an External World. But if it is a Simulation then the Simulation is posing as an External Physical World. I suppose if you Believe this, then that is how you could justify your Naïve Realism beliefs. Before I continue on a possible false premise let me ask: Do you actually believe we live in a Simulation?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:03 pm Holy crap, man, I wasn't saying anything about simulations.

If you can't observe the external world there's zero way for you to know that the external world has jackshit to do with consistency or that it even exists at all.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:44 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:32 pm I'm trying hard to understand how a discussion about hard consciousness is related to the topic.
What ever way we might perceive - whether described as mental representations of the "real " world does not move this question forward.

We can only access our experience to address this question.

On the other Forum there is a music sharing thread. Listen to this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpcSAE7OP40
Now before I go on I am not pretending that this is written by computer, but it does highlight one of the problems with music that is not PLAYED. ASC lacks something that is not to achieved when a computer plays; it lack a human element.
When a band plays they never play exactly the same each time. The pace and tempo is different, not just from the last time they played it but also changes within the length of the song. The relationships between the musicians vary and what is harder to quantify - the mood. This involves different degrees of accenting and other forms of dynamics, unique to the performance, the artists, and the location.
For, me examples of this sort of production fail the definition of music, they are simulted music. But nothing I would want to listen to.

WHen I hear ASC and other tracks of the same kind I imagine a possibly spotty sixth former with a computer in his bedroom. To create this sort of music you would not even have to have a keyboard, and no actual playing of instruments would be necessary. All this removes it from the defining features of music.
For a computer to creatively make this music all you would have to do is delete the spotty sixth former. Not so easy.
Some attempts have been made to program a set of rules for computers to write specific types of music
eg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FxPJD0JZQo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA03iyI3yEA
On their website, it lays out the details of the AI assistent.
https://www.aiva.ai

So far this makes it easier for a human to write music.

The examples I've heard seem to be painfully derivative, and not very imaginitive.

But even if someday the Computer can write Music that you like to listen to, that Music will not be Creatively Composed. It will be Algorithms, Rules, and Configurations. The Computer does not Know it Composed anything, and it cannot even Experience what it Composed. It cannot enjoy its own Music, it has no desire to write the Music, and it is not able to hope that people will like its Music. It is Calculating and Simulating Music for a Conscious Mind with out having a Conscious Mind itself.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:50 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:03 pm Holy crap, man, I wasn't saying anything about simulations.

If you can't observe the external world there's zero way for you to know that the external world has jackshit to do with consistency or that it even exists at all.

So exactly How do you Directly Observe the External World? Are you going to say "I just do it" with no Explanation? If so, You realize how Hollow that rings?