Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm
Yes, and I have no protest. I'm only curious as to how somebody who believes what you say you believe can even convince himself to launch an objection he has to believe is utter nonsense. I mean, unless evil is a real thing, there's no "problem of evil" to be addressed. It's like a "problem of ghosts."

So, why animals are in the fallen world in your opinion?

Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation. They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm But I still don't see how, since you don't believe that, you feel confident to speak of there being a problem of animal suffering, or a problem of evil. For you, don't both have to be mere illusions of the mind?

Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm But tease that out a bit. WHY do we "forget," if that's how it goes? What makes us "forget"? It has to be something sinister, doesn't it? And that thing has to be something beyond us, because it's the thing that makes us "forget" and "fall." So what is it? A devil? A demiurge? A cosmic "one mind" that for some reason has to become two?

It is evil. But it is necessary. Anyone can do it. It is a matter of patient and practice.

I'm sorry...I can't decide what the pronoun "it" in your statement refers to. Grammatically, you just suggested that the Cosmic One Mind is evil...but I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant; so what exactly was the "it" in your claim? And what is "necessary"? The falling? Or the "being enlightened out of the fall" the "illumination"? What can "anyone do"?

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together and both are necessary. I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

You won't enjoy what you get. More life is like Hell.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

I didn't see the answer to this...did I miss it?

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

It is the mind that creates different stories.

The One Cosmic Mind, the many minds of other people, or the minds animals have? Which "mind" does this?

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:41 pm
So, why animals are in the fallen world in your opinion?

Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation. They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

According to you, there IS no such problem. That does something more than "solve" the problem: it eliminates it. For as you say,

Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

Well, why would you think there's one in mine, then? My worldview (according to yours) has to be just a member of the subset of delusions a mind can have. But, as we might say, "no animals are ever hurt in the making of this fantasy."

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together and both are necessary. I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

So there is no problem of evil. The only "problem" you actually perceive is that I happen to believe what you don't. But since I don't really exist, and am only a fiction of your mind, that can't be a problem either...unless I'm the "other mind" that is tormenting your mind... Which I'm not, obviously, so I can't exist...

Now it's just getting weird.

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

'
There's nothing for it to be "like," and no "world" according to the axiom "all is mind."

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

Let me try one more time.

There's a bunch of minds. Some belong to humans, and some belong to something that makes things "change" in humans. And there are animal minds as well. But there's no reality. So there's nothing which makes one "mind" different from another, and there's no "suffering" anywhere, because there isn' even a "where" in which any "suffering" can be located, and "all is mind."

You're going to have to forgive me. I just can't find any coherence in that view at all. How can there be many minds, but "all is mind"? How can there be "suffering" or "evil" when there's no reality in which they can even happen? Can you just speak simply and explain what's going on here?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:46 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:44 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:54 am
So I repeat myself again: Please read this thread.


I provide you three different threads for each proof.

How do you define the word 'proof?

A statement that is correct and fills the gap between two other statements which the first statement is accepted to be true and the second one is considered to be true as a matter of proof.

So, you define the word 'proof' here with a set of words, or a sentence, which, itself, contains the word 'proof', itself.

This partly explains and shows WHY you can NOT YET SEE the 'circular logic', nor the 'begging the question', in your, so called, "arguments".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm
Yes, and I have no protest. I'm only curious as to how somebody who believes what you say you believe can even convince himself to launch an objection he has to believe is utter nonsense. I mean, unless evil is a real thing, there's no "problem of evil" to be addressed. It's like a "problem of ghosts."

So, why animals are in the fallen world in your opinion?

Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation.

Is this what, so called, "christians REALLY BELIEVE is true?

When do 'you' BELIEVE the, so called, "original creation" occurred?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

LOL Creation, Itself, has NEVER 'fallen'. LOOK around 'you'. Thee Universe is still IN Creation. The Universe has NOT and NEVER could fall.

Only 'you' human beings are living in a 'fallen world', and this 'fallen world' is just that tiny little 'world' that 'you', adult human beings, are 'creating' for 'you' and "others" around you.

Creation, Itself, has NO real use nor necessity for the species, human beings. This is because if human beings do NOT align with NOR do NOT work in with Nature/Creation, Itself, then Nature/Creation will just wipe out human beings, and WAIT until ANOTHER intelligent enough species comes into being, through evolution, and then Nature/Creation will use 'them' so that the Universe/Nature/Creation can work out, comprehend, AND understand the PURPOSE, MEANING, and REASON for ALL-OF-THIS, Its Self, in other words - To KNOW Thy Self.

The Universe/Nature/Creation, Itself, has absolutely NO care NOR concern what species evolves into being, which has the capability for this to occur. So, to Creation, Itself, human beings are NOT any more special than ANY other 'thing' is. Nor are they ANY less special. But if adult human beings continue to choose to live in a way, which creates a 'fallen world', then those human beings will just have to live with the consequences of their own choosing and making, their offspring will just 'have to' SUFFER with these consequences.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm But I still don't see how, since you don't believe that, you feel confident to speak of there being a problem of animal suffering, or a problem of evil. For you, don't both have to be mere illusions of the mind?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm
But tease that out a bit. WHY do we "forget," if that's how it goes? What makes us "forget"? It has to be something sinister, doesn't it? And that thing has to be something beyond us, because it's the thing that makes us "forget" and "fall." So what is it? A devil? A demiurge? A cosmic "one mind" that for some reason has to become two?

It is evil. But it is necessary. Anyone can do it. It is a matter of patient and practice.

I'm sorry...I can't decide what the pronoun "it" in your statement refers to. Grammatically, you just suggested that the Cosmic One Mind is evil...but I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant; so what exactly was the "it" in your claim? And what is "necessary"? The falling? Or the "being enlightened out of the fall" the "illumination"? What can "anyone do"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

You won't enjoy what you get. More life is like Hell.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

I didn't see the answer to this...did I miss it?

It is the mind that creates different stories.

The One Cosmic Mind, the many minds of other people, or the minds animals have? Which "mind" does this?

Good questioning and seeking clarification.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:41 pm
So, why animals are in the fallen world in your opinion?

Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation. They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

What 'problem' of 'animal suffering'?

'you', the human being', is in and of an 'animal' body. The human is just another animal. So, what 'suffering' do 'you', allegedly have?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm But I still don't see how, since you don't believe that, you feel confident to speak of there being a problem of animal suffering, or a problem of evil. For you, don't both have to be mere illusions of the mind?

Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

It is evil. But it is necessary. Anyone can do it. It is a matter of patient and practice.

I'm sorry...I can't decide what the pronoun "it" in your statement refers to. Grammatically, you just suggested that the Cosmic One Mind is evil...but I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant; so what exactly was the "it" in your claim? And what is "necessary"? The falling? Or the "being enlightened out of the fall" the "illumination"? What can "anyone do"?

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together and both are necessary. [/quote]

What is 'evil' NECESSARY for, EXACTLY?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

What was your REASON for 'you' choosing to come to this adult human being created 'fallen world'

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm
Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

I didn't see the answer to this...did I miss it?

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

WHAT?

This adult human being created 'world' is like 'hell' because of what 'you', adult human beings, choose to do. This 'hell-like world' did NOT just come to be this way because 'you' or someone "else" just got "used to everything".

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

It is the mind that creates different stories.

The One Cosmic Mind, the many minds of other people, or the minds animals have? Which "mind" does this?

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

Are you AWARE that this TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your other thread title; "We are minds"?

'you/we' can NOT 'be' what 'you/we' 'have'.

'you/we' are EITHER one or the another.

'you/we' can NOT 'be' BOTH.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm
Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation. They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

According to you, there IS no such problem. That does something more than "solve" the problem: it eliminates it. For as you say,

Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

Well, why would you think there's one in mine, then? My worldview (according to yours) has to be just a member of the subset of delusions a mind can have. But, as we might say, "no animals are ever hurt in the making of this fantasy."

So, you believe what I believe?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together and both are necessary. I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

So there is no problem of evil. The only "problem" you actually perceive is that I happen to believe what you don't. But since I don't really exist, and am only a fiction of your mind, that can't be a problem either...unless I'm the "other mind" that is tormenting your mind... Which I'm not, obviously, so I can't exist...

I already proved that there are at least two minds.

Now it's just getting weird.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

'
There's nothing for it to be "like," and no "world" according to the axiom "all is mind."

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

Let me try one more time.

There's a bunch of minds. Some belong to humans, and some belong to something that makes things "change" in humans. And there are animal minds as well. But there's no reality. So there's nothing which makes one "mind" different from another, and there's no "suffering" anywhere, because there isn' even a "where" in which any "suffering" can be located, and "all is mind."

You're going to have to forgive me. I just can't find any coherence in that view at all. How can there be many minds, but "all is mind"? How can there be "suffering" or "evil" when there's no reality in which they can even happen? Can you just speak simply and explain what's going on here?

There are two things, 1) the mind which is an irreducible substance can experience (physical) and cause (physical), and 2) the Physical what the mind experiences and causes.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:08 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:46 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:44 am

How do you define the word 'proof?

A statement that is correct and fills the gap between two other statements which the first statement is accepted to be true and the second one is considered to be true as a matter of proof.

So, you define the word 'proof' here with a set of words, or a sentence, which, itself, contains the word 'proof', itself.

This partly explains and shows WHY you can NOT YET SEE the 'circular logic', nor the 'begging the question', in your, so called, "arguments".

That is a definition and not a proof.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:19 pm
Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation. They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

What 'problem' of 'animal suffering'?

'you', the human being', is in and of an 'animal' body. The human is just another animal. So, what 'suffering' do 'you', allegedly have?

I used to have Deep Depression.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

What was your REASON for 'you' choosing to come to this adult human being created 'fallen world'

You need to live long enough when to know that life becomes boring when you get used to everything.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm
I didn't see the answer to this...did I miss it?

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

WHAT?

This adult human being created 'world' is like 'hell' because of what 'you', adult human beings, choose to do. This 'hell-like world' did NOT just come to be this way because 'you' or someone "else" just got "used to everything".

This world is good and evil.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm
The One Cosmic Mind, the many minds of other people, or the minds animals have? Which "mind" does this?

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

Are you AWARE that this TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your other thread title; "We are minds"?

'you/we' can NOT 'be' what 'you/we' 'have'.

'you/we' are EITHER one or the another.

'you/we' can NOT 'be' BOTH.

I have an argument that there are minds. You failed to find a mistake in my argument. Therefore, I am right. What is your argument that there is only one mind?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:10 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:08 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:46 pm
A statement that is correct and fills the gap between two other statements which the first statement is accepted to be true and the second one is considered to be true as a matter of proof.

So, you define the word 'proof' here with a set of words, or a sentence, which, itself, contains the word 'proof', itself.

This partly explains and shows WHY you can NOT YET SEE the 'circular logic', nor the 'begging the question', in your, so called, "arguments".

That is a definition and not a proof.

'What' is, supposedly, a definition and not a proof?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm
I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

According to you, there IS no such problem. That does something more than "solve" the problem: it eliminates it. For as you say,

Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

Well, why would you think there's one in mine, then? My worldview (according to yours) has to be just a member of the subset of delusions a mind can have. But, as we might say, "no animals are ever hurt in the making of this fantasy."

So, you believe what I believe?

Of course not. I believe in reality. But I can see that if "reality" is merely a fantasy, then nothing is ever actually hurt in it. So in your world, there can be no pain, no sorrow, no evil... because all are only imaginings. And like all imaginings, they're the entire product of the mind having them.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together and both are necessary. I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

So there is no problem of evil. The only "problem" you actually perceive is that I happen to believe what you don't. But since I don't really exist, and am only a fiction of your mind, that can't be a problem either...unless I'm the "other mind" that is tormenting your mind... Which I'm not, obviously, so I can't exist...

I already proved that there are at least two minds.

No, you said that there were. You "proved" nothing of the kind. I'm trying to figure out how that idea can even be remotely coherent, and I'm having a heck of a job doing it.

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

Let me try one more time.

There's a bunch of minds. Some belong to humans, and some belong to something that makes things "change" in humans. And there are animal minds as well. But there's no reality. So there's nothing which makes one "mind" different from another, and there's no "suffering" anywhere, because there isn' even a "where" in which any "suffering" can be located, and "all is mind."

You're going to have to forgive me. I just can't find any coherence in that view at all. How can there be many minds, but "all is mind"? How can there be "suffering" or "evil" when there's no reality in which they can even happen? Can you just speak simply and explain what's going on here?

There are two things, 1) the mind which is an irreducible substance can experience (physical) and cause (physical), and 2) the Physical what the mind experiences and causes.

So now there is one mind, not two as you said earlier? What happened to that second mind...the one you said torments you, or whatever exactly you meant by all that. And now you say there is also a physical reality, -- but it's not really real, because it's only "what the mind experiences and causes?"

Nope, I can't make sense out of that at all.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm
I was aware of that. That however doesn't resolve the problem of animal suffering.

What 'problem' of 'animal suffering'?

'you', the human being', is in and of an 'animal' body. The human is just another animal. So, what 'suffering' do 'you', allegedly have?

I used to have Deep Depression.

WHY?

What caused this "deep depression"?

And, what STOPPED this "deep depression"?

Answer and understand these questions FULLY, properly, AND correctly, then 'you', nor ANY 'one' else, will NEVER "have to" "suffer" like that again.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm I am saying that we chose to come to the fallen world. So good and evil are right.

What was your REASON for 'you' choosing to come to this adult human being created 'fallen world'

You need to live long enough when to know that life becomes boring when you get used to everything.

LOL And how long do 'you' propose that this would happen?

To 'me', considering the fact of the size and extent of this ALWAYS CHANGING and thus ALWAYS DIFFERENT Universe, to 'me', it would be an IMPOSSIBILITY to get, so called, "used to EVERYTHING", no matter how long I live for.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm
The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

WHAT?

This adult human being created 'world' is like 'hell' because of what 'you', adult human beings, choose to do. This 'hell-like world' did NOT just come to be this way because 'you' or someone "else" just got "used to everything".

This world is good and evil.

This universal 'world', also known as thee Universe, Itself, is ALL 'good'.

This adult human created 'world', however, contains BOTH 'good' AND 'evil'.

And, WHY do 'your' responses, "bahman" rarely ever actually address the actual quote which you copied and replied to?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm
Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

Are you AWARE that this TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your other thread title; "We are minds"?

'you/we' can NOT 'be' what 'you/we' 'have'.

'you/we' are EITHER one or the another.

'you/we' can NOT 'be' BOTH.

I have an argument that there are minds. You failed to find a mistake in my argument. Therefore, I am right. What is your argument that there is only one mind?

ONCE AGAIN, here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of 'you' NOT addressing the actual comments/questions, in the actual quote, which you copied from "another", and which you are replying to.

By the way, I have CLEARLY FOUND MISTAKES in what you wrote.

I just wrote that here you wrote; "Your mind" but in other places you write; "We are minds", which can be CLEARLY SEEN is a PURE CONTRADICTION.

Now, either you can EXPLAIN this OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION (mistake in your writings) or you can NOT.

Feel FREE to do whatever you so like now with this FOUND MISTAKE of YOURS.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:14 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm
According to you, there IS no such problem. That does something more than "solve" the problem: it eliminates it. For as you say,

Well, why would you think there's one in mine, then? My worldview (according to yours) has to be just a member of the subset of delusions a mind can have. But, as we might say, "no animals are ever hurt in the making of this fantasy."

So, you believe what I believe?

Of course not. I believe in reality. But I can see that if "reality" is merely a fantasy, then nothing is ever actually hurt in it. So in your world, there can be no pain, no sorrow, no evil... because all are only imaginings. And like all imaginings, they're the entire product of the mind having them.

So you don't believe that God sustains the creation? Whatever sustains the universe is also a mind.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:14 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:45 pm So there is no problem of evil. The only "problem" you actually perceive is that I happen to believe what you don't. But since I don't really exist, and am only a fiction of your mind, that can't be a problem either...unless I'm the "other mind" that is tormenting your mind... Which I'm not, obviously, so I can't exist...

I already proved that there are at least two minds.

No, you said that there were. You "proved" nothing of the kind. I'm trying to figure out how that idea can even be remotely coherent, and I'm having a heck of a job doing it.

Well, then I invite you to another thread to discuss my argument about the existence of conscious mind. It then follows that there are two conscious minds, one is you that cause certain changes and another who sustains everything else.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:14 am

Let me try one more time.

There's a bunch of minds. Some belong to humans, and some belong to something that makes things "change" in humans. And there are animal minds as well. But there's no reality. So there's nothing which makes one "mind" different from another, and there's no "suffering" anywhere, because there isn' even a "where" in which any "suffering" can be located, and "all is mind."

You're going to have to forgive me. I just can't find any coherence in that view at all. How can there be many minds, but "all is mind"? How can there be "suffering" or "evil" when there's no reality in which they can even happen? Can you just speak simply and explain what's going on here?

There are two things, 1) the mind which is an irreducible substance can experience (physical) and cause (physical), and 2) the Physical what the mind experiences and causes.

So now there is one mind, not two as you said earlier?

No. There are at least two minds. In there I was saying that a conscious mind is needed for any change.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:14 am What happened to that second mind...the one you said torments you, or whatever exactly you meant by all that. And now you say there is also a physical reality, -- but it's not really real, because it's only "what the mind experiences and causes?"

Nope, I can't make sense out of that at all.

Doesn't God sustain the universe?

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:25 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am What 'problem' of 'animal suffering'?

'you', the human being', is in and of an 'animal' body. The human is just another animal. So, what 'suffering' do 'you', allegedly have?

I used to have Deep Depression.

WHY?

What caused this "deep depression"?

Because of the thousands of reasons. Because of the way that people treated me. Because of my lonely life for almost 15 years.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:25 am And, what STOPPED this "deep depression"?

Answer and understand these questions FULLY, properly, AND correctly, then 'you', nor ANY 'one' else, will NEVER "have to" "suffer" like that again.

It took me a long time to overcome the depression.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:25 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am
What was your REASON for 'you' choosing to come to this adult human being created 'fallen world'

You need to live long enough when to know that life becomes boring when you get used to everything.

LOL And how long do 'you' propose that this would happen?

It certainly happens before the end of time. The time that there is no end for it!

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:25 am To 'me', considering the fact of the size and extent of this ALWAYS CHANGING and thus ALWAYS DIFFERENT Universe, to 'me', it would be an IMPOSSIBILITY to get, so called, "used to EVERYTHING", no matter how long I live for.

You don't need to be exposed to everything. The number of things that you can joy is finite.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:25 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am WHAT?

This adult human being created 'world' is like 'hell' because of what 'you', adult human beings, choose to do. This 'hell-like world' did NOT just come to be this way because 'you' or someone "else" just got "used to everything".

This world is good and evil.

This universal 'world', also known as thee Universe, Itself, is ALL 'good'.

This adult human created 'world', however, contains BOTH 'good' AND 'evil'.

And, WHY do 'your' responses, "bahman" rarely ever actually address the actual quote which you copied and replied to?

When I say the universe I mean human included. Also animal. Also non-material. Good and evil exist.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:25 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:41 am Are you AWARE that this TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your other thread title; "We are minds"?

'you/we' can NOT 'be' what 'you/we' 'have'.

'you/we' are EITHER one or the another.

'you/we' can NOT 'be' BOTH.

I have an argument that there are minds. You failed to find a mistake in my argument. Therefore, I am right. What is your argument that there is only one mind?

ONCE AGAIN, here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of 'you' NOT addressing the actual comments/questions, in the actual quote, which you copied from "another", and which you are replying to.

By the way, I have CLEARLY FOUND MISTAKES in what you wrote.

I just wrote that here you wrote; "Your mind" but in other places you write; "We are minds", which can be CLEARLY SEEN is a PURE CONTRADICTION.

Now, either you can EXPLAIN this OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION (mistake in your writings) or you can NOT.

Feel FREE to do whatever you so like now with this FOUND MISTAKE of YOURS.

Again. Could you prove that there is only one mind? I invite you to discuss the argument for different minds in another thread. You can also open another thread for your proof that there is only one mind.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

I wonder why we're talking about it then. For if there is not "evil" in your worldview, then according to your worldview, nothing in my worldview can factually be "evil" either. So there simply is nothing to discuss about that.

But then, why do you write: "It is evil, but necessary..." Nothing is "evil" in your worldview.

It is evil. But it is necessary. Anyone can do it. It is a matter of patient and practice.

I'm sorry...I can't decide what the pronoun "it" in your statement refers to. Grammatically, you just suggested that the Cosmic One Mind is evil...but I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant; so what exactly was the "it" in your claim? And what is "necessary"? The falling? Or the "being enlightened out of the fall" the "illumination"? What can "anyone do"?

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together

No, there is no "evil," remember?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

I didn't see the answer to this...did I miss it?

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

But "Hell" is not "evil," because there's no evil in your world...

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

This is no different from anyone else's view. There's nothing special to it. It supposes that there are many "minds," and they all participate in some kind of mediating reality that makes them distinct.

That's very conventional.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 pm Yes, there is no such thing as the problem of evil in my worldview.

I wonder why we're talking about it then. For if there is not "evil" in your worldview, then according to your worldview, nothing in my worldview can factually be "evil" either. So there simply is nothing to discuss about that.

But then, why do you write: "It is evil, but necessary..." Nothing is "evil" in your worldview.

There is Good and Evil in my worldview. There is no problem of Good or Evil though.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 pm

I'm sorry...I can't decide what the pronoun "it" in your statement refers to. Grammatically, you just suggested that the Cosmic One Mind is evil...but I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant; so what exactly was the "it" in your claim? And what is "necessary"? The falling? Or the "being enlightened out of the fall" the "illumination"? What can "anyone do"?

No, I am suggesting that good and evil come together

No, there is no "evil," remember?
There is evil. There is no provlem of evil. These are different things.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 pm

The world becomes like Hell when you get used to everything.

But "Hell" is not "evil," because there's no evil in your world...

There is evil in my worldview. There is no problem of evil.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 pm

Your mind, mine, other minds are writing different stories, the separate live's story, and together they write the history.

This is no different from anyone else's view. There's nothing special to it. It supposes that there are many "minds," and they all participate in some kind of mediating reality that makes them distinct.

That's very conventional.

Cool. But that is not all. The mind cannot be created since it is free. You can find the proof here.