Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:38 pm stan, lou, and mack all want to achieve and maintain the same thing (keeping their families, safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc)

certainly seems like a group or communal goal till you dig deeper

each man has his own particular take on what it means to further & maintain his family: stan and his are country folk, what they do to further themselves is not the same as what lou (a city dweller) and mack (an off-the-gridder) do

further, all three men (and their families) have different notions about what bein' safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc. means

diggin' deeper, we can see what appears to be group or communal goals are really individual goals

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:34 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:22 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:10 pm

I ain't seein' how that's so.

Since criminals and the immoral aren’t blunted by the current level of government, clearly the current level is insufficient and we need more! QED.

Whatever the level of government by sorts of Mafia, that government is insufficient.

No government that lines its own pockets , or legislates to empower itself, is a sufficient government. I wish to God there was an honest government somewhere in his world.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:40 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:38 pm stan, lou, and mack all want to achieve and maintain the same thing (keeping their families, safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc)

certainly seems like a group or communal goal till you dig deeper

each man has his own particular take on what it means to further & maintain his family: stan and his are country folk, what they do to further themselves is not the same as what lou (a city dweller) and mack (an off-the-gridder) do

further, all three men (and their families) have different notions about what bein' safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc. means

diggin' deeper, we can see what appears to be group or communal goals are really individual goals

So what you are saying is not everybody wants to be safe, clothed, educated, housed and fed - you are just equivocating "safety", "clothing", "education", "housing" and "feeding".

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:45 pm so: different folks can't have different ideas about what it means to be safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc.

you: commie

in logic, equivocation is an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:00 pm They can.

if they can then why do you say I'm sayin' not everybody wants to be safe, clothed, educated, housed and fed?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:00 pm folks either have differin' notions or they don't

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:00 pm stan assesses he and his are safe, at home, in the middle of the night cuz stan has a loaded stoger at his bedside; lou assesses he and his are safe cuz his apartment buildin' has a security system and he has 911 on the speed dial

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:00 pm I think stan, overall, is safer (he retains control over his circumstance) while lou is less safe (he relies on tech installed & maintained by another, he relies on strangers to come to his aid)

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:00 pm so, no, I'm not equivocating: I'm recognizing difference

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:47 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:13 pm Yes, the goal is alike with others, but it’s not a group goal. It’s more a competitive goal. In the sense that one person may achieve his goal of wealth for himself and his family, while others may fail, it is non-unique.

Yes, but everybody wants to achieve the goal. Nobody wants to fail at achieving that goal.

And if everybody is to actually succeed at achieving the goal, then the game cannot be a zero-sum game.

So not-playing a zero-sum game is a group goal IF you want to minimise your individual risk of failing at your individual goal.

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:33 pm You have no clue as to how people earn their livings and provide for their families.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:40 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:38 pm stan, lou, and mack all want to achieve and maintain the same thing (keeping their families, safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc)

certainly seems like a group or communal goal till you dig deeper

each man has his own particular take on what it means to further & maintain his family: stan and his are country folk, what they do to further themselves is not the same as what lou (a city dweller) and mack (an off-the-gridder) do

further, all three men (and their families) have different notions about what bein' safe, fed, clothed, educated, housed, etc. means

diggin' deeper, we can see what appears to be group or communal goals are really individual goals

So what you are saying is not everybody wants to be safe, clothed, educated, housed and fed - because you are equivocating "safety", "clothing", "education", "housing" and "feeding"?

Personally, I've never met a person who doesn't want to be safe, clothed, educated, housed and fed. But they do disagree on how to get there.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:47 pm What are proxies?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:39 pm he has all the chess pieces in place for principal-agent problems to arise

a specific example, please

I ain't holdin' my breath that you'll foist one up