Philosophy Now Forum

Dubious

It's within the secular realm that philosophies emerge or get fertilized as consequence of all the heterogeneous forces and discords that exist within it. Secularism can be discordant and go to extremes but it also possesses the means of neutralizing excess in which reason is forced to defend the rational when the latter is infringed. Within secularism the Great Beast is usually countered by another Great Beast that didn't agree with its predecessor ...and so it goes.

Also, an "eternal value" created by humans does not have to be good just because one decides to call it that! As with all values created by humans, many are not good and the worst in that class are your so-called "eternal" ones...those preconditioned by some presumed ultra-human authority likewise created by humans. Such terms become counterfeit when employed to sanction theistic, political or intellectual goals with a credence beyond our normal limits to define.

One aspect of the Great Beast is always countered by another. That is why as for all of organic life on earth everything turns in circles in response to natural and cosmic influences.

Eternal values have always existed. Man either seeks to feel their value or interpret them for pragmatic purposes. Interpretation often leads to values becoming their opposite for the Beast.

You are closed to the reality that the consciousness of the Beast functions in accordance with horizontal duality. Human consciousness adds an additional vertical dimension. Human consciousness corresponds to the triune reality of our universe. You argue over the horizontal. Those who appreciate the reality and value of eternal values are capable of consciously experiencing the vertical reality of being. One who is capable of both – the scientist and the man of being who can bring knowledge into a human perspective, is a real human being and not just an atom of the Great Beast.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:49 pm Dubious

It's within the secular realm that philosophies emerge or get fertilized as consequence of all the heterogeneous forces and discords that exist within it. Secularism can be discordant and go to extremes but it also possesses the means of neutralizing excess in which reason is forced to defend the rational when the latter is infringed. Within secularism the Great Beast is usually countered by another Great Beast that didn't agree with its predecessor ...and so it goes.

Also, an "eternal value" created by humans does not have to be good just because one decides to call it that! As with all values created by humans, many are not good and the worst in that class are your so-called "eternal" ones...those preconditioned by some presumed ultra-human authority likewise created by humans. Such terms become counterfeit when employed to sanction theistic, political or intellectual goals with a credence beyond our normal limits to define.

One aspect of the Great Beast is always countered by another. That is why as for all of organic life on earth everything turns in circles in response to natural and cosmic influences.

Eternal values have always existed. Man either seeks to feel their value or interpret them for pragmatic purposes. Interpretation often leads to values becoming their opposite for the Beast.

You are closed to the reality that the consciousness of the Beast functions in accordance with horizontal duality. Human consciousness adds an additional vertical dimension. Human consciousness corresponds to the triune reality of our universe. You argue over the horizontal. Those who appreciate the reality and value of eternal values are capable of consciously experiencing the vertical reality of being. One who is capable of both – the scientist and the man of being who can bring knowledge into a human perspective, is a real human being and not just an atom of the Great Beast.

The stuff you write in all your impressive enlightenment makes as much sense as pooping upside-down. I'm not interested in continuing to debate this ever repeating crap. Whether vertical, horizontal or diagonal, it comes out the same shit; and let's not forget the 3rd dimension of thought which you incessantly mention as if you understood any of it. You haven't got a clue about eternal values either otherwise you'd name a few as THAT which every conscious being in the universe can agree to, not just what WE (you specifically) proclaim but can't name...but you haven't. If you don't know what they are then "eternal values" are just two conflated words which have zero significance equal to the senseless crap you write...the unfortunate reality of which I'm definitely "closed to". What's also unfortunate is that in your two thousand posts you completely fubared what could have been a worthy subject of debate.

I had my fun, knew it wasn't going to last long and now its over...on to other things!

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:48 pm First of all, do you distinguish between consciousness and “contents of consciousness?” Most seem to confuse the two. They believe that consciousness exists when they become conscious of things which I call contents of cosciousness. Yet for me consciousness and the contents of consciousness are different but related levels of reality.

Hi Nick, thanks for getting back to us...yeah, I was having problems with the site as well.

The distinguishing appears when there is an awareness of self, and awareness of being alive ..when awareness knows sensation.. the mind is born which is the faculty for making distinction between what was previously unknown, but NOT ABSENT.. into to the known...I Am PRESENT.
So I agree with you that consciousness and the contents of consciousness are different but related levels of reality. Yes, this is true.
Consciousness and the contents of Consciousness are inseparably ONE..THE DIFFERENCES are all within this same one as itself.

As consciousness cannot experience it's own absence...what do you mean by absence?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:48 pmConsciousness is never absent. It becomes covered over by imagination pertaining to contents of consciousness becoming dominant.

Yes, I agree...absence is known only in relation to being present, the present gives birth to the knower of absence in the same instant.. PRESENCE is this immediate stateless state...the absent presence.

It's weird sounding but the awakened mind will get this.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:48 pmActually the commandment says not to murder in the heart rather than kill. We kill for many reasons including the need to eat and self defense to eat. But to murder in the heart is a very dangerous expression of pride which is a real spirit killer.

Yes, I do recall that now, I agree do not murder...it's different to killing. Killing is unavoidable it's part and parcel of life, but to murder is againt the natural eternal law.
Suicide is a form of murder I think.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:48 pmBut you have raised an important question. We have been discussing God concepts which I agree are important. But if it is true that if we live in imagination, our God concepts will just become distorted. For example, realistically there can be no conflict between science and the essence of religion since they are both true. Yet conflict is intense. It seems that we do not know what we are or even what Man is. If we don’t, how can we have a realistic appreciation of the God/Man conscious connection? In the future would you be willing to participate in a thread examining Plato’s tripartite soul as described in Plato’s Chariot allegory? Obviously since the white horse is attracted to eternal values and the forms, it would be meaningless for the secularists. But if a few open to the idea participate, it could become meaningful for contemplating what we ARE and the struggle between the desires of our higher and lower natures.

Agreed, .. we can be both aware of our infinite self and aware of our finite self in the same moment, simply because to be aware of our finite self wouldn't make any sense if it's opposite was not included, present in the same moment...most people only identify with one side of the story...they don't see infinity, they only see finity, which is understandable...they cannot see that they are infinite, while knowing they die..when the realisation dawns that they cannot die..the divine paradox is seen as an eternal law...that HAS TO BE.

Presence or aware one is alive is not imagined...it's what comes after presence that is imagined, simply because nothing can come after infinity, there is only infinity..aka everything and nothing.

To be walking in synchronisation with the natural eternal laws, we have to allow what's happening to be exactly how it is without inference or resistance or having any control over it...just like animals live their lives...non-conceptually...and this is not thought about by most humans because they invented language which they took upon to be what constitutes real reality when it's nothing more than imagination...beyond the story is what's actually real.

Humans have been gifted the with sense of self awareness, their consciousness is totally and utterly limitless. Because they ARE CONSCIOUSNESS aware of itself...so they can consciously be aware of their eternal life unfolding as this evolution in progress..

I could go on explaining this and writing about it in and on so many different levels and ways...forever, but time eludes me, there's just not enough time to do it in this temporal life right now...there is so much info streaming into me all the time, my brain can hardly cope ...

.

Nick_A wrote:...
Eternal values have always existed. ...

That's nice to know Nick_A but you still appear to be unable to name any, apart of course from your dharma and karma but as we've seen with those there are problems with the moral behaviour they can engender. So can you name others that might help your case?

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:18 pm

Nick_A wrote:...
Eternal values have always existed. ...

That's nice to know Nick_A but you still appear to be unable to name any, apart of course from your dharma and karma but as we've seen with those there are problems with the moral behaviour they can engender. So can you name others that might help your case?

You cannot appreciate eternal values because you lack an eternal perspective in which to appreciate eternal values.

For example truth is an eternal value. You only acknowledge truth from a subjective secular perspective and reply "whose truth." What good is speaking of truth as an eternal value if you do not distinguish between what is above and below Plato's divided line? It is really impossible to even have an intellectual awareness of what it means to have truth as an eternal value from such a limited subjective perspective?

Dontaskme

Humans have been gifted the with sense of self awareness, their consciousness is totally and utterly limitless. Because they ARE CONSCIOUSNESS aware of itself...so they can consciously be aware of their eternal life unfolding as this evolution in progress..

This is our essential difference. Where you believe we are consciousness or God, I believe we are a plurality with the potential for a human soul which will reconcile our higher and lower parts. Most are drawn to escape from the disturbing experience the contradiction of what we ARE but from this perspective, conscious experience as opposed to animal reaction is what enables “understanding” and inner freedom that comes from conscious understanding. Does this following excerpt from Jacob Needleman’s book “Lost Christianity” resonate with you?

In short, the soul is not a fixed entity. According to Fr. Sylvan it is a movement, that begins whenever a man or woman experiences the psychological pain of contradiction. It is an actual energy, but one that is only at some beginning stage of its development and action. Every day, every more or less average individual experiences the appearance of this energy in its most embryonic stage. Whenever there is pain or contradiction, this energy of the soul is released or activated. Lost Christianity is the lost or forgotten power of man or woman to extract the pure energy of the soul from the experiences that make up his or her life. This possibility is distinct only in the most vivid or painful moments of our ordinary lives, but it can be discovered in all experiences if one knows how to seek it.
Certain powerful experiences are often accompanied by the sensation of presence, and attention appears that is simultaneously open to a higher, freer mind or spirit, and to all the perceptions, sensations and emotions that constitute our ordinary self. One feels both separate and engaged in a new and entirely extraordinary way. One experiences “I am.” This is the soul in its inception.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:29 pm Dontaskme

Humans have been gifted the with sense of self awareness, their consciousness is totally and utterly limitless. Because they ARE CONSCIOUSNESS aware of itself...so they can consciously be aware of their eternal life unfolding as this evolution in progress..

This is our essential difference. Where you believe we are consciousness or God, I believe we are a plurality with the potential for a human soul which will reconcile our higher and lower parts. Most are drawn to escape from the disturbing experience the contradiction of what we ARE but from this perspective, conscious experience as opposed to animal reaction is what enables “understanding” and inner freedom that comes from conscious understanding.

I do understand what you are saying. But as awakened beings we can only know our own experience of it. I can't know how your awakening looks or feels like to you, and no one can know or feel what mine is like..how could anyone even know what a true awakening is...it's just a feeling of knowing without knowing...to know thyself is to want to know thy self...you have to want it, and only then will it reveal.

I'm sure you understand...but the reveal will only be how we personally see it, not how others see it, and neither should we adopt or be influenced by another persons awakening, as it will not be the same path as our own...we will also have different ways of writing about it. But ultimately, we can only see what we see, not what others see...writing about this may cause recognition and resonance with readers, but they too will only have their experience and will have no access to another persons view path, journey.

What I believe is that on physical death of the body the personality of that soul that has been evolving does not die with the body but continues on as and through a new body, otherwise what's the point of learning anything..... all the info is carried forward to the next incarnation and downloaded into the new body to continue on where they left off on with the journey of soul evolution. But then this is just an idea of mine, I'm not saying it is fact.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:29 pm Does this following excerpt from Jacob Needleman’s book “Lost Christianity” resonate with you?

In short, the soul is not a fixed entity. According to Fr. Sylvan it is a movement, that begins whenever a man or woman experiences the psychological pain of contradiction. It is an actual energy, but one that is only at some beginning stage of its development and action. Every day, every more or less average individual experiences the appearance of this energy in its most embryonic stage. Whenever there is pain or contradiction, this energy of the soul is released or activated. Lost Christianity is the lost or forgotten power of man or woman to extract the pure energy of the soul from the experiences that make up his or her life. This possibility is distinct only in the most vivid or painful moments of our ordinary lives, but it can be discovered in all experiences if one knows how to seek it.
Certain powerful experiences are often accompanied by the sensation of presence, and attention appears that is simultaneously open to a higher, freer mind or spirit, and to all the perceptions, sensations and emotions that constitute our ordinary self. One feels both separate and engaged in a new and entirely extraordinary way. One experiences “I am.” This is the soul in its inception.

Yes.

Nick_A wrote:You cannot appreciate eternal values because you lack an eternal perspective in which to appreciate eternal values. ...

So you say but I'm always amazed how you appear to know such things about me?

For example truth is an eternal value. You only acknowledge truth from a subjective secular perspective and reply "whose truth." ...

There you go again? Talking to you feels like you are having a conversation with an imaginary playmate.

I acknowledge three levels of truth and they come from Logic, the necessary, the contingent and the impossible, in other words the tautologies, the contingencies and the contradictions.

What good is speaking of truth as an eternal value if you do not distinguish between what is above and below Plato's divided line? It is really impossible to even have an intellectual awareness of what it means to have truth as an eternal value from such a limited subjective perspective?

Personally I'm more with Aristotle in such matters but give me an example of how you use this 'eternal value'?

I'll also point out that Plato has the higest level of his divided line as using dialectic and he views reason as above all. Elsewhere you've mentioned the 'soul' in conjunction with Plato but what do you mean by 'soul'? As I seriously doubt it's the same as his, as his is the 'psyche' and it's the conjunction of the Reason, the Appetites and the Spirit with the Spirit in service to Reason to control the Appetites.

Arising

Personally I'm more with Aristotle in such matters but give me an example of how you use this 'eternal value'?

I made a chart of reality existing above Plato’s divided line we have the potential to consciously experience as compared to those existing below the line we experience with our senses. Do you accept the distinction?


Above the line………………………….Below the line

One……………………………………….......Many

Identity…………………………………......Difference

Permanent………………………………....Changing

Divine……………………………………......Human

Soul………………………………………......Body

Reason……………………………………....Senses

Truth……………………………………......Appearance

DaM

What I believe is that on physical death of the body the personality of that soul that has been evolving does not die with the body but continues on as and through a new body, otherwise what's the point of learning anything..... all the info is carried forward to the next incarnation and downloaded into the new body to continue on where they left off on with the journey of soul evolution. But then this is just an idea of mine, I'm not saying it is fact.

If what you call the soul is just an atom of imagined expression from God, what evolves? It is already evolved.

I may be wrong but I don't believe the universe and Man within it for you has an objective purpose. If there is no objective purpose, is there any reason to concern ourselves with the question of infanticide? Respect for life is meaningless because being nothing more than a whim of God respect for life as an eternal value is meaningless. Have I understood your position?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:07 am Arising

Personally I'm more with Aristotle in such matters but give me an example of how you use this 'eternal value'?

I made a chart of reality existing above Plato’s divided line we have the potential to consciously experience as compared to those existing below the line we experience with our senses. Do you accept the distinction?


Above the line………………………….Below the line

One……………………………………….......Many

Identity…………………………………......Difference

Permanent………………………………....Changing

Divine……………………………………......Human

Soul………………………………………......Body

Reason……………………………………....Senses

Truth……………………………………......Appearance

In his book Meditations on First Philosophy, Descartes refers to an intuition as a pre-existing knowledge gained through rational reasoning or discovering truth through contemplation.

If this is true is the highest use of reason IYO to learn new facts as in science or remembering what has been forgotten but always is?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:23 am DaM

What I believe is that on physical death of the body the personality of that soul that has been evolving does not die with the body but continues on as and through a new body, otherwise what's the point of learning anything..... all the info is carried forward to the next incarnation and downloaded into the new body to continue on where they left off on with the journey of soul evolution. But then this is just an idea of mine, I'm not saying it is fact.

If what you call the soul is just an atom of imagined expression from God, what evolves? It is already evolved.

I may be wrong but I don't believe the universe and Man within it for you has an objective purpose. If there is no objective purpose, is there any reason to concern ourselves with the question of infanticide? Respect for life is meaningless because being nothing more than a whim of God respect for life as an eternal value is meaningless. Have I understood your position?

Nothing is evolving and Everything is evolving.

Everything is meaningful and Nothing is meaningful. It's all the same infinite one dreaming it is finite.

The infinitely appearing movie aka images is the unfurling of what has already happened at the moment of the big bang...and at the moment of the big bang...every possible permutation of pure potential was already present in the state of a singularity...

This singularity split into the many....which hasn't moved an inch...it's in the same place which is everywhere....that singularity is in every single one of us as pure potential unrealised, we are the dream characters..but more importantly we are the Eternal Awareness in which our dream is arising...

Realised potential is the movie unfurling as it is in recognition with itself as it comes online appears, shows up to itself, as this sound and light show...the movie/dream... is a re-run, of what's already happened.

No one knows what is going to happen next, no more than a character in a nightly dream knows it is alive, or being a character in a nightly dream... the projector of the movie knows what's going to happen next because frame by frame it is revealing itself as it becomes known in the instant it is recognised. The movie is like a compact disc..all the info for the movie is already contained within the disc.

This current movie is just one of an infinite amount of dreams that are taking place simultaneously for ever and ever and ever..add infinitum.

One big bang is just one dream of the infinite dreamer playing out in real space time duality. Screening upon the event horizon that stops everything from happening at once.

.

This is my vision that I am personally seeing, and I cannot change that view...it is me...so to me, the killing of an innocent baby is only the killing of yourself, we do this to ourselves only...there is no other self.....this is the eternal law, in my vision...in that everything we do and everything we say, and everything we experience, we are only doing it to our-self.

A good sound healthy conscience would not kill an innocent baby...it would be as if that person was killing themself, and no one wants to kill themself not a healthy mind any way...a sick mind might want to kill it self, but not an awakened mind.

This is just one way of an infinite amount of ways of describing this ...so it's each to their own vision...none of them are right or wrong, they're just visions, stories written and told by no one...infinitely appearing out of nowhere....NOW HERE. the only place there is where every thing does/not happen.

That's what God is.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:55 am
A good sound healthy conscience would not kill an innocent baby...it would be as if that person was killing themself, and no one wants to kill themself not a healthy mind any way...a sick mind might want to kill it self, but not an awakened mind.

To give you an example of how sick the unawakened mind is Nick..I will share with you a personal story of mine.

While I was pregnant with my 4th child who was from the same Father as was the rest of my children...my husband whom I adored and loved forever...was having an affair with another woman who was from another country.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, my husband eventually dumped me and abandoned all his 4 children in the process to go and live with this other woman.

We have not seen him since, this was 23 years ago.

Anyway, when I went to see my Doctor for a pregnancy check-up, you know those professional people with supposed high levels of intelligence that know what they are doing and talking about, those people that believe their education makes them who they are..you know the ones with phd's and such...well anyway, guess what he said to me when I told him my husband had left me...he said, and this is no lie, he said... do you want to consider having an abortion, as if that's the first thing I would have had on my mind...well of course I was really shocked by this Doctors blase attitude toward life..., in fact I actually felt physically sick at the thought of an abortion....because to me, that baby inside my belly was me...if I killed the baby already growing inside of me..it would have been like killing myself....I had this instinctive knowing that it was not up to me to kill my own baby..

The point is, people like to believe it is their education that gives them their intelligence, but it is not..intelligence is a natural eternal value. You cannot get that from some education....it's already YOU AS LIFE knowing itself.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:20 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:55 am
A good sound healthy conscience would not kill an innocent baby...it would be as if that person was killing themself, and no one wants to kill themself not a healthy mind any way...a sick mind might want to kill it self, but not an awakened mind.

To give you an example of how sick the unawakened mind is Nick..I will share with you a personal story of mine.

While I was pregnant with my 4th child who was from the same Father as was the rest of my children...my husband whom I adored and loved forever...was having an affair with another woman who was from another country.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, my husband eventually dumped me and abandoned all his 4 children in the process to go and live with this other woman.

We have not seen him since, this was 23 years ago.

Anyway, when I went to see my Doctor for a pregnancy check-up, you know those professional people with supposed high levels of intelligence that know what they are doing and talking about, those people that believe their education makes them who they are..you know the ones with phd's and such...well anyway, guess what he said to me when I told him my husband had left me...he said, and this is no lie, he said... do you want to consider having an abortion, as if that's the first thing I would have had on my mind...well of course I was really shocked by this Doctors blase attitude toward life..., in fact I actually felt physically sick at the thought of an abortion....because to me, that baby inside my belly was me...if I killed the baby already growing inside of me..it would have been like killing myself....I had this instinctive knowing that it was not up to me to kill my own baby..

The point is, people like to believe it is their education that gives them their intelligence, but it is not..intelligence is a natural eternal value. You cannot get that from some education....it's already YOU AS LIFE knowing itself.

.

I may be wrong but “sick unawakened mind” seems to express a negative emotion which detracts from its value. The implication is that there is something “bad” about it. This is the Greta mind trap. Don’t fall into it. When Jesus was on the Cross he said to “forgive them for they know not what they do.” As reacting creatures living in imagination it is an unfortunate truth. Jesus didn’t curse out anyone but just reminded his followers what was actually happening. As soon as we sink to the same level which invites the exchange of FUs, philosophy and the essence of religion which invite us to be present to a happening are sacrificed to prideful reactions.

Anyway, when I went to see my Doctor for a pregnancy check-up, you know those professional people with supposed high levels of intelligence that know what they are doing and talking about, those people that believe their education makes them who they are..you know the ones with phd's and such...well anyway, guess what he said to me when I told him my husband had left me...he said, and this is no lie, he said... do you want to consider having an abortion, as if that's the first thing I would have had on my mind...well of course I was really shocked by this Doctors blase attitude toward life..., in fact I actually felt physically sick at the thought of an abortion....because to me, that baby inside my belly was me...if I killed the baby already growing inside of me..it would have been like killing myself....I had this instinctive knowing that it was not up to me to kill my own baby..

You raise the question of what human intelligence actually is in comparison to subjective social definitions of intelligence. Can a person be considered intelligent if they are oblivious of respect for life and eternal values? That is a topic in itself but let me post two typical gems from Simone Weil

"The difference between more or less intelligent men is like the difference between criminals condemned to life imprisonment in smaller or larger cells. The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like a condemned man who is proud of his large cell.

"... All that matters is that he has come to the end of its intelligence, such as it was, and has passed beyond it. A village idiot is as close to truth as a child prodigy. ..."
From – “Human Personality”

Human intelligence IMO begins with the soul knowledge of universals or eternal values and devolves down into the lower parts of the collective human soul or essence. A real intelligent human being has consciously united universals with the diversity of things they produce. As above, so below.

A_uk wrote:Personally I'm more with Aristotle in such matters but give me an example of how you use this 'eternal value'?

So you won't be answering this then Nick_A. Just more kissing lies.

I made a chart of reality existing above Plato’s divided line we have the potential to consciously experience as compared to those existing below the line we experience with our senses. Do you accept the distinction?

Can't really understand your chart? But if it's a "chart of reality" then no I don't. If I was going to have such a pointless thing then my 'chart of reality' and dividing line goes like this,

Phenomena - Known, Unknown and Knowable
-------------------
Noumena - Unknown and Unknowable

I still don't understand how you have a 'soul' as an entity with respect to Plato as his 'soul' is more the 'psyche' and it consists of the interaction of three other things. Is it because you are a Christian and are importing it?