Philosophy Now Forum

A_UK:

You don't have to see a mind, just be one to know that it is.

A good rule of thumb is that whenever capitals are used unnecessarily the person had no clue what the words mean or refer to but I stand to be corrected so what is this 'IS-NESS'?

IS-Ness is knowing...it's a knowing known by no one.

Only life is seen, not death, death and life are the same phenomena, they just differ in appearance that's all.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:16 pmMake your mind up you just said you can't see death so how are you telling a difference of appearance?

Death is not seen, it's only known.. as a concept by life...all concepts including life are appearances, death is unseen, life is seen..but only apparently as it appears. to no one...as seeing cannot see itself.

You cannot experience death or life.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:16 pm''Only LIFE IS SEEN.''


Untrue as 'Life' is a reification. The living and dead are everywhere to be seen.

Seeing cannot see itself..which is death....or it's life according to it's appearance.

They don't teach you this in school do they?

All concepts are KNOWN....NO CONCEPT HAS EVER BEEN SEEN.

All our words about what is...are ideas known....no one has ever seen an idea...the world is a dream dreamt by no one.

Believed to be real.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:53 pm
As I understand it, consciousness and imagination are mutually exclusive, If pure conciousness IS, what is the purpose of the universe perceived as a process described by Buddha as suffering? What is the reason for this unnecessary potential for imagination?

Imagination is just a belief...there is no movie of you without the belief.

The purpose of suffering is purely a perceived perception in that which never suffered (the perceiver)..which is the natural state...and then there is a knowing the difference between you and what appears in you...which is transcending from the sufferer into the non-suffering natural state.

Lets not forget the dream is real, it's a real illusion that I exist...but this I never suffered anything, it only imagined it did.

Suffering is a mental state, where is suffering in deep dreamless sleep, when the mind is in abeyance you are in the natural state of you...the state that never sleeps, the state that is wide awake always and forever... it's only the mind that goes to sleep. Sleep being an appearance of wide awakeness.

Wide-awakeness is primary and has to be first...it's called pure awareness, it has to be there during the deep sleep state of sleep...otherwise you would not have known you had gone to sleep or awoken from sleep...it's prior to the mind, the mind is an aspect of it....an appearance in it.

Now the mind can imagine all sorts of stuff is happening to itself like suffering, emotions, pain, pleasure and everything else it can conjure up...these sensations are real enough...but they are transient phenomena'a appearing in YOU as pure awareness. YOU as pure awareness is never scarred or affected by what appears in YOU....just as the screen behind the movie is never affected by the movie appearing on that screen.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:53 pm

“The supernatural greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.” ~ Simone Weil

Now this makes more sense to me than imagining suffering doesn't exist since I've grown to appreciate the meaning of the Crucifixion and Resurrection in relation to the human condition rather than deny it as a dream. I just don't understand the rational for your belief. Why would pure consciousness intentionally produce imagination and all the suffering it produces?

Because pure consciousness is a concept...appearing in ''no thing'' aka itself...it's a dream appearing real to itself.

No one ever suffered, just as no character in a nightly dream suffered their experience...all tangible ideas come and go in you, they are not you...you stay, you are, you never changes, you is never affected by anything that arises and falls in you.

Without all these appearances appearing and disappearing in YOU...NOTHING would be happening, there would be no dream story...nothing, zero, zilch.



I don't get why you can't see this yourself.

What appears to die comes back to life, as we see all too often in our own gardens.

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:16 pmThe same plant doesn't and you are an animal not a vegetable.

Concepts are not alive or dead, they only appear to be.

The one that grows the grass, that grows the vegetable, is the same one growing you...it's the same gardener.

Dontaskme wrote:The one looking out of the eyes of the dream character A_uk...has never seen death. ...

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:16 pmSeen it, smelt it and held it, you?

So according to the logic of A_uk..which is just an idea by the way...

You have seen death.

And that death exists because you've seen it.

And you say there can't be anything known about death because there is no one there in a dead body to know it had died.

So who is the one knowing there is no one in a dead body?

...if there is no one in a dead body..who is the one in a live body that knows there is no one in a dead body? ..and can that one that knows ever die if there is no one in a dead body to know it had died?

Surely that knower has to be eternally knowing?

_________

Otherwise what have we got here....

Somehow there is someone here alive...and before they were alive they were dead, and somehow this dead thing was suddenly alive and then this alive thing then died.

Yes, A_uk..that makes perfect nonsense doesn't it?

Can you think about this more accurately and deeply? ...what is it that is actually alive or dead?

.

Dontaskme wrote:

The one that grows the grass, that grows the vegetable, is the same one growing you...it's the same gardener.

Yes, I agree. It is a little disappointing that I seem to be the only other poster who can see this.. However there is no evidence that the gardener is kind to us. It's true that the gardener enables life forms. The gardener also destroys life forms often with surprising cruelty. It's not evident from the dharma which we experience that the gardener is good or just.

Passive Eastern philosophy is suited to people who have no hope or expectation of improving their lives. Active Abrahamic religionists have the advantage that they suit disadvantaged people who can with the intervention of God improve their own lives and the lives of others. Neither passive Eastern religions nor active Western religions can rationalise the problem of suffering.

Meantime eternal values would be good for us if only we knew what those values were!

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am

Meantime eternal values would be good for us if only we knew what those values were!

You create the values, you put them there. You are the eternal knower.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am the problem of suffering.

We do not experience suffering...we suffer our experiencing.

There is no one to experience suffering...there is only the experiencing ..which can only appear to the sense of a separate self...suffering the experiencing.

Note that while suffering may arise in you...it comes and goes ..while you do not. You cannot come and go, YOU ARE ETERNITY EXPERIENCING ITSELF.

Cruelty has to be there, just as pleasure and bliss is there. You as eternal experiencing are all allowing, all enduring. Nothing ever happened to you.

You are the eternal witness of your transient self...the dreamer of your dreams.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am
Yes, I agree. It is a little disappointing that I seem to be the only other poster who can see this.. However there is no evidence that the gardener is kind to us.

You are the gardener.

What you believe or what you think will become your reality. You can only be kind to you, no other can give you kindness, you give it to yourself, but you could not know it without knowing it's opposite, which is cruelty....but what you are essentially is neither concept, you do not need to be kind or cruel to be what you are...which is eternal awareness.

You are the eternal dreamer of your thoughts, which you develop into your own personal dream reality..you manifest them into actuality...no one else does this for you, for there is nothing outside of your own consciousness except what you and only you are projecting to be out-there, ..so it's all coming from you and you alone ...you cannot step out of your conscious dream right now ...what appears outside of you is actually inside of your consciousness projected out-there appearing as the dream images you are dreaming...manifesting the invisible into the visible.

It's the same thing happening to all other consciousnesses from the perspective of those consciousnesses .....and from the perspective of one particular consciousness according to the world view of that consciousness ..there is nothing else happening anywhere....for how could anything else be happening separate from that consciousness...? that conscious one would have to step outside it's consciousness to know that.

I know this may not make sense right now...but it will eventually the more deeper you dig into the nature of consciousness.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:58 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am

Meantime eternal values would be good for us if only we knew what those values were!

You create the values, you put them there. You are the eternal knower.

But if there is no I then I cannot create anything. If the universal intelligence is the only agent then my concept of self is an illusion.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:29 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:58 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am

Meantime eternal values would be good for us if only we knew what those values were!

You create the values, you put them there. You are the eternal knower.

But if there is no I then I cannot create anything. If the universal intelligence is the only agent then my concept of self is an illusion.

There is no I because there is no other than I

You are that.

This I can only be imagined as a concept, it's an illusion yes..but a very real illusion.

The I has to be there eternally for imagination to ever be possible in the first place... to even appear.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:29 am
But if there is no I then I cannot create anything. If the universal intelligence is the only agent then my concept of self is an illusion.

Drop the concept / thought of I ...the I am Belinda idea....and feel what's left?

What is there without the concept of you?

You'll see you are still there...that's your real eternal self.

This is too simple for the mind who believes it lives and dies.

Dontaskme wrote:

You are the gardener.

What you believe or what you think will become your reality.

Like I said in my last reply to you. If there is no I, no self, then I, self , cannot be the instigator of beliefs.

I partly agree with what you say as psychology, but pain and joy do break into the stronghold of my chosen reality. Anyway, you can't have it both ways: 1. that the gardener is the only uncaused cause, and 2. that I am a cause.

I can have it both ways as follows: 1. and 2. are each a valid aspect of the gardener which overarches 1. and 2.

The only way available to human beings to access eternal values if they exist is reason. Faith is usually a fancy word for obedience to what some man in a big wig said long ago.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:41 am Dontaskme wrote:

You are the gardener.

What you believe or what you think will become your reality.

Like I said in my last reply to you. If there is no I, no self, then I, self , cannot be the instigator of beliefs.

I partly agree with what you say as psychology, but pain and joy do break into the stronghold of my chosen reality. Anyway, you can't have it both ways: 1. that the gardener is the only uncaused cause, and 2. that I am a cause.

I can have it both ways as follows: 1. and 2. are each a valid aspect of the gardener which overarches 1. and 2.

The only way available to human beings to access eternal values if they exist is reason. Faith is usually a fancy word for obedience to what some man in a big wig said long ago.

Yes you can have it both ways..because you are the one in which the other one arises.

You do not need concepts like faith and belief just to be...you already are, else the concepts of faith and belief could and would not even arise.

You are not a concept...you are that concept-less empty space in which all concepts arise and are known as and when they arise...one with the knowing..

What is the reason or purpose for living?

Nothing...except what the mind puts there, the gardener.