Christianity

[Alexis Jacobi]

Knowing your faith: What does it mean to be a ‘practicing Catholic’?

[Immanuel Can]

A child would say that Catholics are Christians who are doing things which are unnecessary for salvation.

A child could see that Catholicism is teaching what the Bible denies.

He/she might also say that belief without action is empty.

And that is true. And the Bible says that, too: that if a person says he has faith, but does not follow that up with actions that show that faith is a true commitment, then that guy's lying. Fair enough.

Can one honestly claim to be a Christian without good works?

Good works are what a bad person starts to do, after he becomes a Christian. He does them out of gratitude for what has been done for him, and because of the new dynamic actually at work in his life. But good works are not what makes a person into a Christian in the first place. That's what we get from Ephesians 2: 8-9 and Titus 3:5, for example, which I cited earlier.

A true Christian will have gratitude for his salvation, and a regenerated life empowered by God. So he will start to do better things. And we see this demonstrated all the time, actually: I know many people who were once addicted, criminal, destructive, self-loathing, bitter, vengeful, abusive, larcenous, malicious and so on, who gave all that up by becoming Christian. And that's evidence of good works. But they didn't get saved from their bitterness, maliciousness, criminality or addiction by works...usually, they had tried plenty hard before that to fix their own lives, with no success; what turned them around was the faith commitment they made that then issued in better actions as well.

Christianity's a real thing. A person who becomes a Christian also becomes transformed in that experience. And that changes not merely outward actions but even inner character and inclinations.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Your rebuttal Phyllo?

[Immanuel Can]

Your rebuttal Phyllo?

I'm curious: do you see every conversation as if it were a conflict?

You seem to feel there always have to be winners and losers, rather than two people discussing an issue and both gaining insight. I kind of marvel that you've never apparently realized that the best conversations, especially in philosophy, are win-win...

[Alexis Jacobi]

Relax old boy!

Phyllo is demonstrating how the Child he has invoked approaches and, I gather, settles these thorny theological questions.

Today’s agenda is obviously settled!

[Alexis Jacobi]

By now I think all clearly realize, with varying levels of consternation, that I am a Delinquent Saint.

[Gary Childress]

By now I think all clearly realize, with varying levels of consternation, that I am a Delinquent Saint.

Why are you a "delinquent saint"?

[Alexis Jacobi]

See Chapter 14, Section 3, ¶¶ 9-27

[Gary Childress]

See Chapter 14, Section 3, ¶¶ 9-27

Of...

[promethean75]

The book of Brocephus

[phyllo]

Your rebuttal Phyllo?

I don't see much need for rebuttal.

He's admitted that a person who merely claims to believe, may be lying to himself and others.

So good works come along with belief or as a result of belief.

It's like arguing over the pronunciation of 'tomato'.

As for Catholic rituals not being in the bible ... I see them as a useful way to stay motivated and engaged.

It's like when you get a gym membership. You believe that exercise is good for you but often you don't feel like going.

You go because you scheduled a session with a workout partner, you expect to see the regulars there at a particular time and day, you have set goals. That sort of thing. It keeps you going.

[Immanuel Can]

He's admitted that a person who merely claims to believe, may be lying to himself and others.

So good works come along with belief or as a result of belief.

I've said both, actually. But I've pointed out that good works, no matter how impressive or abundant they may be, do not produce salvation, and faith does.

A person may do a ton of good works, but do every one of them for selfish reasons, such as to appear philanthropic, to increase his personal influence, or even to show off his surplus wealth. And such a person may not have one iota of faith in God.

In fact, the Bible talks specifically about such people. As Jesus said,

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ "(Matthew 7:21-23)

As for Catholic rituals not being in the bible ... I see them as a useful way to stay motivated and engaged.

May I ask, then, what are you being "motivated and engaged" with? Is it with God personally, or just with the sort of external religious performance in the rituals, or as suggested above?

[iambiguous]

Good works are what a bad person starts to do, after he becomes a Christian. He does them out of gratitude for what has been done for him, and because of the new dynamic actually at work in his life. But good works are not what makes a person into a Christian in the first place. That's what we get from Ephesians 2: 8-9 and Titus 3:5, for example, which I cited earlier.

A true Christian will have gratitude for his salvation, and a regenerated life empowered by God. So he will start to do better things. And we see this demonstrated all the time, actually: I know many people who were once addicted, criminal, destructive, self-loathing, bitter, vengeful, abusive, larcenous, malicious and so on, who gave all that up by becoming Christian. And that's evidence of good works. But they didn't get saved from their bitterness, maliciousness, criminality or addiction by works...usually, they had tried plenty hard before that to fix their own lives, with no success; what turned them around was the faith commitment they made that then issued in better actions as well.

Christianity's a real thing. A person who becomes a Christian also becomes transformed in that experience. And that changes not merely outward actions but even inner character and inclinations.

See, there he goes again.

Noting how becoming a true Christian is so utterly vital for all of us. Then the part where you attain immortality and salvation on the other side.

He notes all of this and in turn notes that there is actual proof beyond a leap of faith, beyond "because the Bible says so", that the Chirstian God does in fact exist.

Yep, those videos.

Another proposal:

How about if he goes right down the line here on this thread examining the videos one by one. Then after each one he notes the parts that most convinced him that the Christian God does in fact exist. And then after exploring all of him he sums up the most powerful segments of them all.

I'll bet he refuses.

And I'll bet that the reason he refuses is because he himself knows that the evidence isn't there at all. He knows that if it actually was there that's all he would be doing...saving souls by demonstrating that the Christian God does exist.

He'd be going from forum to forum. To Twitter. To all the other social media bringing over hundreds to Jesus Christ.

Instead, he chucks all that "saving souls" stuff in order to squabble with those like AJ up in the intellectual/spiritual clouds yammering on and on about things that have virtually nothing to do with why religion exists in the first place.

Really, imagine Jesus Christ Himself returning and spending all of His time addressing the sort of things that AJ considers to be of vital importance here.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Really, imagine Jesus Christ Himself returning and . . .

Really, He’s better off up in those Theological Clouds being hauled up by those fabled skyhooks from one fine celestial region to others even more fine . . .

[Gary Childress]

I try to do what I perceive to be right. I try to do unto others as I would wish done unto me. I can't buy into the notion that Jesus was the creator of the universe. If I go to "Hell" because I don't think Jesus was the creator of the universe or else because I'm not one of the "chosen" people then so be it. I do my best in a world that is a terrible mess in many ways. As far as I know, I haven't killed anyone. If Paul goes to heaven after killing people for the Romans and I go to hell after behaving myself relatively much more, then so be it. I want no part of a God who would administer the world in that way. That is not a moral god in my book. Maybe Abraham was in mystic union with Satan and didn't realize it for all I know.