Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:05 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:11 pm The god imagery created by humans all throughout history has never turned out to be more than human creations of their time period.

Interesting how Christianity wrote-in the idea of a grand revelation and judgement 'coming someday', to secure and perpetuate it indefinitely.

Claiming (suddenly at that time in history) there can be 'no other gods' -- only this one is 'true'. How many times has humankind done that throughout history?

Human history shows that religions last thousands of years before people work through them. A sign of how programmable humans are, and how dependent they are on their programs. Very imaginative species, apparently programming ourselves.

You say it like it is inevitable, yet programming can be broken.
South Korea is 56% non religious.
Most wester countries are showing growing rejection of all religion.

No, actually I don't think it is inevitable, it just seems to have been part of humankind's 'early' development stages. Some people seem more geared for being programmed, while others do not.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:11 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:36 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:39 pm Then might it be possible that a god is not 'a being' in the way that humans frame such a thing?

Then might it be possible that a god is not?

The god imagery created by humans all throughout history has never turned out to be more than human creations of their time period.

What do you mean by 'never'?

Do you REALLY think or BELIEVE that you can speak for EVERY one, hitherto?

Also, what evidence is that that a God imagery created by 'you', human beings, has been created throughout ALL history?

And, is it NOT, AT ALL, possible, in 'your little world' "lacewing", that the God imagery created by human beings could ACTUALLY be True, Right, AND Correct?

If no, then what happened to your continued advice about 'broadening one's views'?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:39 pm Interesting how Christianity wrote-in the idea of a grand revelation and judgement 'coming someday', to secure and perpetuate it indefinitely.

Interesting how what was written might ACTUALLY be just about to come True, to 'you', human beings, in the days when this is being written, and/or has ACTUALLY come True, to 'us', ALREADY

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:39 pm Claiming (suddenly at that time in history) there can be 'no other gods' -- only this one is 'true'. How many times has humankind done that throughout history?

And, maybe EVERY time 'you', human beings, have done this, what was ACTUALLY being referred to was and is thee One and ONLY God.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:39 pm Human history shows that religions last thousands of years before people work through them. A sign of how programmable humans are, and how dependent they are on their programs. Very imaginative species, apparently programming ourselves.

Are 'you', "lacewing", able to recognize that, or refer to, 'you', human beings, as individuals, with individual thoughts and views?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:06 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:00 pm It's possible we are amoral, morally-vacant, ape-variants livin' in an amoral, Godless, universe.

As demonstrated, we are able to be and do all kinds of things regardless of beliefs.

So, ONCE AGAIN, WHY hold, or even have, BELIEFS, in the beginning?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:24 pm Do you think that all gods throughout human history have been imagined as persons?

cite one who hasn't been taken or seen as a person

https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-deities- ... nimals.php

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:24 pm Do you think that all gods throughout human history have been imagined as persons?

cite one who hasn't been taken or seen as a person

Thee One and ONLY True and REAL God.

And, if ANY of 'you', persons, take or see God as 'a person', then here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of 'anthropomorphism' AT WORK, and when what thee ACTUAL Truth is UNCOVERED and SEEN by 'you', human beings, then what is also UNCOVERED and DISCOVERED is WHY 'anthropomorphism' is such a Wrong thing to do.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:42 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:51 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:00 pmIt's possible we are amoral, morally-vacant, ape-variants livin' in an amoral, Godless, universe.

Is there any reason to think that is not the case?

Here are 4 that work for me (along with all the more formal arguments)...

The existence of mind, free will, ownness, and conscience.

What IS 'mind', EXACTLY? Where does 'it' exist, EXACTLY? How does 'it' work, EXACTLY? When does 'it' work, EXACTLY? And, Why does 'it' exist, EXACTLY

Also, how many 'mind/s' are there?

What is 'free will', EXACTLY? Et cetera, et cetera?

What is 'ownness', EXACTLY? Et cetera, et cetera?

And,

What is 'conscience', EXACTLY? Et cetera, et cetera?

See, if you want to make the CLAIM that the existence of these things are the reasons to think that 'you', human beings, are NOT living and existing in an 'amoral, morally-vacant, ape-variant Godless, Universe', then surely you would have the ACTUAL PROOF, or at least, ACTUAL EVIDENCE of what these things are, EXACTLY, as well as how they work, EXACTLY, correct?

If you can NOT back up and support your CLAIMS FULLY and IRREFUTABLY, then WHY should ANY one "else" accept the existence of these four things as being 'reasons' that a Godless Universe does NOT exist?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:27 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:05 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:11 pm The god imagery created by humans all throughout history has never turned out to be more than human creations of their time period.

Interesting how Christianity wrote-in the idea of a grand revelation and judgement 'coming someday', to secure and perpetuate it indefinitely.

Claiming (suddenly at that time in history) there can be 'no other gods' -- only this one is 'true'. How many times has humankind done that throughout history?

Human history shows that religions last thousands of years before people work through them. A sign of how programmable humans are, and how dependent they are on their programs. Very imaginative species, apparently programming ourselves.

You say it like it is inevitable, yet programming can be broken.
South Korea is 56% non religious.
Most wester countries are showing growing rejection of all religion.

No, actually I don't think it is inevitable, it just seems to have been part of humankind's 'early' development stages.

When you say, "humankind's 'early' development stages", then what are you referring to, EXACTLY?

See, 'humankind' has been said to have been around for a million or a few years hitherto when this was being written, and how well do you REALLY KNOW the 'early' stages of that humankind's development?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:27 am Some people seem more geared for being programmed, while others do not.

Will you provide ANY examples of "those" who seem and who do NOT seem "more geared for being programmed", to you?

If no, then WHY NOT?

age,

most people that I know of are CERTAINLY NOT talking about 'a person' when they talk about 'God'.

so, when most of the people you know talk about God, what are they talkin' about?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:22 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:06 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:00 pm It's possible we are amoral, morally-vacant, ape-variants livin' in an amoral, Godless, universe.

As demonstrated, we are able to be and do all kinds of things regardless of beliefs.

free will is a bitch

Being free of theist belief offers potential and freedom beyond the theist structured stories and limitations. Some people may not be comfortable with that; they may be more inclined towards having structured beliefs (like a roadmap), and identifying themselves through that. Non-theists simply don't feel that need, and can't subscribe to something that doesn't make sense to them. Either way, people demonstrate all types of behavior and capability, regardless of whether they are theists or not.

uwot,

Great that they work for you. Is that any reason they should work for others?

That they work for me is no reason at all. That mind, free will, ownness, and conscience are real and have no source in the matter of man, that -- seems to me -- is a reason for others to mebbe consider they're more than a peculiar arrangement of materials and that Reality may not be a rudderless affair.

lace,

up-thread I said...

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:23 amGenesis 1:27: So God created man in his own image

This, I think, can be, ought be, taken that we are very much like Him. Not physically (He may have no form, have multiple forms, or look like the FSM), but becuz, like Him, we're persons (free wills) with causative/creative power.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:39 amhttps://www.toptenz.net/top-10-deities- ... nimals.php

all ten entries describe persons (free wills with causative/creative power)

each chooses their actions; each acts with intent

there are no mindless forces in the bunch

...a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing...except corruption wherever its deformed teachings managed to penetrate.

age,

What IS 'mind', EXACTLY?

It's the part of you that can't be sourced in the brain: personality, reason, free will, conscience, identity


What is 'free will', EXACTLY?

I take it two ways: it's the faculty that allows one to choose and act for reasons not necessarily sourced in prior events; and it's what we are (persons: reasoning, intending, acting, beings); it's part of you, is you, like mind


What is 'ownness', EXACTLY?

the intuition all men share; the rock-solid, unwavering sense man has that he is his own, that he isn't, and can never be, property (others may treat him as property but he never is property); as I see it, ownness is at the core of morality (what is and isn't permissible between and among men)


What is 'conscience', EXACTLY?

it's the moral sense; the internal arbiter of right and wrong reflectn', I think, The Arbiter

-----

the danger of categorizin' things like mind, free will, conscience, and ownness is these categories are artificial and can lead to viewing any or all as things to be examined in isolation from the others

each, I think, is part & parcel of the others, none existin' as a quality or substance that can be plonked down under a microscope

bein' bold: I'm talkin' about your soul or spirit that coexists or is intermingled with your substance

we're composite beings, I think, who ought be taken as seamless wholes, not pieces and parts

lace,

Being free of theist belief offers potential and freedom beyond the theist structured stories and limitations.

mebbe so, or mebbe it offers meaninglessness and despair (leadin' to a desperate search to fill the void; a flittin' from one shiny & new to another; temporary respite [and faux satisfaction] thru crystal-rubbin' and tree-huggin')

anyway: it's not my problem cuz I'm not a theist

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:07 am age,

most people that I know of are CERTAINLY NOT talking about 'a person' when they talk about 'God'.

so, when most of the people you know talk about God, what are they talkin' about?

NONE of them YET KNOW.

They just use the word 'God', like they know what they are talking about.