Page 1038 of 1324

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:14 am
by Immanuel Can
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:02 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:50 pm f we choose an inadequate pejorative, we risk trivializing it:
You'll have to ask Harbal which adjective he would use.
He suggested a couple; I pointed out that they either didn't work or would amount to exactly the same thing. The word might change, but the concept and phenomenon the word is being used to describe wouldn't change.
...for many the word evil comes with a couple of senses... 2) 'Evil' is often associated with a transcendent force
And for our purposes, it's an open question whether or not it should be. Maybe it should. I made that case to Harbal.
It's certainly possible that his not believing in God is related to this.
That was my first thought. But I think you'll find his explanation tends a different way. I'm waiting to hear him clear that up for me.
But human assessments can be objectively apt, and can be consonant with divine ones, even if the speaker refuses to acknowledge that fact. And as I said, banishing "evil" will not change the number, the severity or the frequency of the undesirable phenomenon.
Right but that's looking at it in a kind of Newtonian specific instantce of cause and effect way.
Not really. It's just being practical. Calling genocides "population rectifications" or "the final solution" would not change anything about what they actually are. The bodies would still pile up just as fast. But what would be removed would be the moral judgment that rightly ought to be levied against them...and that would be a significant loss. And along with that, we'd lose our ability to condemn in suitably morally-laden language what surely we ought to regard as a totally condemnation-worthy act.
Perhaps if we didn't look at people in the ways associated with that word, that more general phenomenon might reduce the chances of terrible acts.
That, I have to say, is the most unlikely suggestion yet. Rather, it's more likely that people will commit attrocities for which they have no suitable condemnatory language. If these acts can't be called "evil," then how can they be judged as such? How will sufficient moral alert be conveyed to those who are unaware of an impending evil?

Meanwhile, I see absolutely no reason to suppose that pinching the important moral terms out of the common vocabulary will turn human nature to sweetness and light. Just because a person no longer knows how to label or evaluate something properly doesn't mean he's going to do it less. Quite the opposite, I would think.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:22 am
by Harbal
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:50 pm
I have no difficulty calling genocide an "evil." And I don't think any morally alert person really could. So it's hard to see the point of H.'s objection, other than that perhaps he hates the idea of God, and fears that a word like "evil" implies backing by a divine assessment, not merely by a human one. But human assessments can be objectively apt, and can be consonant with divine ones, even if the speaker refuses to acknowledge that fact. And as I said, banishing "evil" will not change the number, the severity or the frequency of the undesirable phenomenon.

I would have no difficulty in using the word, "evil", as an adjective that means extremely bad if everyone else used it in exactly the same way, but they don't. The word has religious, super natural connotations for many people, which distorts the truth of the situation. If we want to stop genocide from happening, then surely it would be better to study what is going on in the minds of the people who commit it, rather than looking towards the sky and bewailing the existence of evil in the world.

And I don't hate the idea of God; I have no emotional response to the idea of God. I do hate that some people look to God for answers to the serious problems we have in the world, because it diverts them from looking for answers in the right places.
The fear is, in the absence of a sufficiently strong and apt term by which to assign moral value to an act, we just might trivialize and thus extenuate it. I'm for keeping the term "evil."
Of course you are all for keeping the term, "evil", because it has an important role in keeping your mythology deception going.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:29 am
by Iwannaplato
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:14 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:02 am Perhaps if we didn't look at people in the ways associated with that word, that more general phenomenon might reduce the chances of terrible acts.
That, I have to say, is the most unlikely suggestion yet. Rather, it's more likely that people will commit attrocities for which they have no suitable condemnatory language. If these acts can't be called "evil," then how can they be judged as such? How will sufficient moral alert be conveyed to those who are unaware of an impending evil?
But you can recognize the other side. I mean, what you just put forward here I was responding to in your previous post. Yes, warnings in strong terms, labelling in strong terms might prevent some people from doing X. It also might get people worked up to stop X. But calling groups of people evil can and has been used to motivation precisely things like genocide. Again, because the term need not point to anything visible, it cuts past the need for specific evil behaviors: sure in your village, they seemed to do the same things, more or less, and feel the same things, but they are evil, really. The supernatural and transcendent qualities of the idea allow more swingroom for classing a whole people as in need of eradication. Yes, calling Bosnians or Jews bad can do this also. But evil allows this quality of badness to be behind the scenes, transcendent, underneath, lurking, in ways that are less likely with other terms.
Meanwhile, I see absolutely no reason to suppose that pinching the important moral terms out of the common vocabulary will turn human nature to sweetness and light.
Has anyone asserted this?
Just because a person no longer knows how to label or evaluate something properly doesn't mean he's going to do it less. Quite the opposite, I would think.
It seems to me Harbal is not arguing legislation, but is responding to the use of the word 'evil' as part of a complicated set of behaviors and attitudes that he thinks are less human and less able to lead to solutions.

IOW you are strawmanning here. Unless I missed something he hasn't said.

We should stop people from using the word evil. That alone will turn human nature to sweetness and light.

If he has asserted this, my apologies.

My sense is that he doesn't think anything will make us all sweetness and light and that a lot of other things need to happen for even humble improvements, BUT that use of the term evil has caused more problems than solutions.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:13 pm
by Immanuel Can
Harbal wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:22 am I would have no difficulty in using the word, "evil", as an adjective that means extremely bad if everyone else used it in exactly the same way, but they don't. The word has religious, super natural connotations for many people, which distorts the truth of the situation.
How do you know that's "the truth of the situation?"
If we want to stop genocide from happening, then surely it would be better to study what is going on in the minds of the people who commit it, rather than looking towards the sky and bewailing the existence of evil in the world.
Oh, that's not a necessary choice. One can do both. Susan Neiman, in her study of evil, mentions two types of "evil," which she designates "natural evils" and "human evils." The "natural evils," she thinks, are things like earthquakes and tornadoes, or more arguably, cancer -- things that have no definite human agency involved. "Human evils" are things like Hitler's, or Stalin's, or Mao's evil deeds, or the predations of an ordinary criminal. So nobody need deny both.

Interestingly, Neiman doesn't even entertain the possibility you're worried about: she never mentions anything about "supernatural evil." She doesn't seem to think the two (natural, human) have more than a passing resemblance with each other, and she doesn't seem to think anything supernatural is involved at all.

Nevertheless, if "evil" or "badness" is NOT capable of being "natural," far less "supernatural," then that claim needs to be shown. Otherwise, we would be wise to leave it an open question. I can see no justification for foreclosing on it. That just seems rash. For what if we are missing something, and the people who think "evil" ought to be applied to natural or supernatural things turn out to be right? Then we would have gelded our ability to recognize and deal with evil...which is the very outcome about which you express concern.
And I don't hate the idea of God; I have no emotional response to the idea of God. I do hate that some people look to God for answers to the serious problems we have in the world, because it diverts them from looking for answers in the right places.

Well, that, too would be merely assumptive: it is not evident that anybody has evidence that looking to God is "the wrong place." One would already have to be an Atheist to think that...and as we know, Atheism has no evidence to justify itself, let alone such a deduced claim.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:25 pm
by Immanuel Can
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:29 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:14 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:02 am Perhaps if we didn't look at people in the ways associated with that word, that more general phenomenon might reduce the chances of terrible acts.
That, I have to say, is the most unlikely suggestion yet. Rather, it's more likely that people will commit attrocities for which they have no suitable condemnatory language. If these acts can't be called "evil," then how can they be judged as such? How will sufficient moral alert be conveyed to those who are unaware of an impending evil?
But you can recognize the other side.
"Recognize"? I would "recognize" it as highly implausible, but not as a serious suggestion. I do not at all think that having no name for something helps us eliminate it. It doesn't disappear merely because our word for it does.
But calling groups of people evil can and has been used to motivation precisely things like genocide.
"Calling" has been used for all kinds of things, both good and bad. But nobody kills people merely because of a label. Instead, they need a more elaborate worldview that seems to justify that label -- like, say, Social Darwinism, which the Nazis used to justify race politics and eugenics. Since most Nazis were not even conventionally religious (a great many were occultists, however, which would undermine your claim significantly, since occultists often make "evil" seem alluring), the term "evil" -- if it is even a strictly religious word -- was one of the least effective tools in mobilizing genocide in that case. It was, at most, a kind of afterthought, or a way of inducing those Germans who perhaps might believe in such things to sympathize.

But again, the abuse of a thing does not argue against its right use. Muggers use knives; so do surgeons. We don't take away surgical knives just because muggers use them for bad things.
Meanwhile, I see absolutely no reason to suppose that pinching the important moral terms out of the common vocabulary will turn human nature to sweetness and light.
Has anyone asserted this?
Well, not in those words, it's true, and I am guilty of hyperbole there: but the point sticks. The point is that if we think that eliminating the term "evil" will incline people to DO less evil, we're fooling ourselves. It will render them mute on the point, perhaps; but it won't make them behave any better.

If we no longer say "rape," will rapes decline? :shock:

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:27 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Harbal wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:22 amI would have no difficulty in using the word, "evil", as an adjective that means extremely bad if everyone else used it in exactly the same way, but they don't. The word has religious, super natural connotations for many people, which distorts the truth of the situation. If we want to stop genocide from happening, then surely it would be better to study what is going on in the minds of the people who commit it, rather than looking towards the sky and bewailing the existence of evil in the world.

And I don't hate the idea of God; I have no emotional response to the idea of God. I do hate that some people look to God for answers to the serious problems we have in the world, because it diverts them from looking for answers in the right places.
It seems to me that in order to better appreciate the Christian sense of what is evil that one must state in clear terms precisely the core and also the inseparable metaphysical concepts that inform it. So, in this sense Harbal is very right to have noticed that the notion of evil is, beyond any doubt, *religious* (I use the term metaphysical) and infused with "supernatural connotations".

And the core of it has been expressed through a "picture" which is quite simple: The chief opponent of God's cosmic work, Satan, has fallen down into the earth-realm and has been allowed to have control over this domain -- that is to have significant influence -- until such time as the reign of Satan is contested and overthrown. So, to understand a Christian's given concern, or his basic grasp of the metaphysical picture -- a description of an operative cosmology -- we can usefully refer to the picture of it as presented by the theology-infused play MacBeth. Consider the Weird Sisters:
As dramatic symbols, Shakespeare's Weird Sisters seem to be preeminently adequate and successful. In appearance, speech, and action they seem intended to suggest accurately such witches and witchcraft as were familiar to the Elizabethan public. They are desiccated, hag-like creatures with choppy fingers, skinny lips, and beards, who dwell preferably in the murk of desert places and rejoice in upheavals of nature. Upon occasion, indeed, they themselves brew storms on land and tempests at sea, thus destroying the products of men's hands at home and distressing or sinking ships abroad. Their sail-boats are sieves. Associated with them in ceremonial dances --conducted under the influence of the magic number three and its multiples -- are evil spirits in the form of cats and toads or sometimes in the likeness of a woman; they employ parts of dismembered dead bodies, toads, and adders in winding up their necromantic charms. Compacts with the devil and his angels assure them a certain prophetic power, though they are likely to accomplish their ends by means of half-truths. All the hocus-pocus of magic rites seems to be familiar to them.
MacBeth's experience is, naturally, an emblematic metaphysical picture of the means by which a soul is seduced, tricked and trapped by demonic power, resulting in the sacrifice the most precious gift or possibility that a Christian-theological man can conceive: the liberation of the soul from the temptations of the world and the attainment of redemption that opens the possibility of a life beyond these constrained and dangerous circumstances and on a higher metaphysical plane. So MacBeth pictures, in dramatic form, what damnation actually is, and thus presents an extremely potent picture of a descent that, certainly in the Elizabethan period, made clear metaphysical sense.

The story of MacBeth then offers to anyone who senses his metaphysical position as precarious and danger-ridden, a very clear picture that, though perhaps through other means and circumstances, one could very easily fall into snares that lead to lead one into devastating levels of moral error and, finally, to damnation.

Harbal demonstrates, I think, how it has come about that a man -- the outcome of social, cultural, intellectual and moral processes -- has been extruded onto the scenario of the present devoid of any connection at all with an *informing metaphysics* of the sort that, for example, moved Gertrude (in Hamlet) to say:
Thou turns't mine eyes into my very soul / and there I see such black and grained spots / as will not leave their tinct
For Harbal -- for a man of a certain modern sort and for a man who had, say, resolved all metaphysical difficulties by seeming to become inured to them -- there is no more *metaphysic*. It has all evaporated or been dried by some sun of modernity.

When MacBeth said to his doctor:
Canst thou not minister to a mind diseased / Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow / Raze out the written troubles of the brain / And with some sweet oblivious antidote / Cleanse the stuff'd bosom of that perilous stuff / Which weighs upon the heart?
Harbal reveals that, now, all such moral angst has been done for. There is no more moral problem. Thus there can no longer be any *introspection* nor is there any looming sense of implication in the disease of bad, wrong or evil choices. There are really no consequences therefore -- from his position in a linoleum-lined kitchen in a flattened modernity.
IC wrote: The fear is, in the absence of a sufficiently strong and apt term by which to assign moral value to an act, we just might trivialize and thus extenuate it. I'm for keeping the term "evil."
Harbal writes: Of course you are all for keeping the term, "evil", because it has an important role in keeping your mythology deception going.
Well, mythologies are real, and mythologies have been studied and the elements within them brought to the surface where they have been examined. That is a modern intellectual endeavor, or one popularly cultural, but it is also one that has taken place in the *shadow* of a modern intellectual movement in which the former metaphysic has substantially collapsed. The core terms or predicates of that metaphysic are now regarded as quaint, picturesque and fundamentally meaningless.

With this said, what is needed to understand a great deal going on in our present (in the world surrounding us, the world of contemporary events) is a better grasp of the fact that, for some, perhaps for many, the moral issue has not collapsed, nor the metaphysical conceptions that inform it.

The issue therefore is one between some people that say *this is real, but not this other* and those (from the Christian-metaphysical perspective) who insist that to take that tack is disasterous, on as many levels as we might list here.

Am I proposing a resolution? No. Not necessarily. It is far better to understand what issues actually operate so that they can be seen and better understood.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:51 pm
by Iwannaplato
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:27 pm we can usefully refer to the picture of it as presented by the theology-infused play MacBeth.
Nice to see Shakespeare dragged in to this discussion. Let me throw out Othello. Here we have the presentation of a bad/toxic/evil person, Iago, managing to manipulate Othello into a terrible act. There is no actual supernatural agent remotely parallel to the Weird Sisters. Othello is seduced but by a fairly believable mundane figure. We've all known people controlled by entitlement and envy, and if we're paying attention noticed at least shadows of Iago in ourselves, however pale.

Do we need any particular word to think Iago is terrible and Othello extremely flawed? I don't think so. I don't think we need a conception of a transcendent power that pulls people off the path of goodness.

But further one concern I have is that generally, the way evil is used as a concept, perhaps mainly in Abrahamic religions is that they teach us to be split against ourselves.

Instead of there are some uresolved patterns in myself that I need to work out, it is often that there is an evil force (lucifer, say) out there manipulating our emotional/desire centers.

Part of this whole upper chakras good, lower chakras bad, rationality good, emotions bad, logical analysis of choices good, following desire (temptation) bad, that gets us to have a jailer jailed relationship with ourselves.

Now the ironic thing is that one need not be religious to follow this schema. Many intellectual athiest humanists have the same set of dichotomies with some of the above terms never used.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:56 pm
by Immanuel Can
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:51 pm Do we need any particular word to think Iago is terrible and Othello extremely flawed?
Apparently, we do. You used "terrible" and "flawed." These are value judgments. Value judgments have to be grounded in something, or they are mere opinions.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:07 pm
by Iwannaplato
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:25 pm "Recognize"? I would "recognize" it as highly implausible, but not as a serious suggestion. I do not at all think that having no name for something helps us eliminate it. It doesn't disappear merely because our word for it does.
That's not the other side and NO ONE is suggesting having no name for genocide for example. The other side is the way the concept of evil has been used, for example, to contribute to getting people without much power to join in genocide or killing witches or dragging people behind pickup trucks and support it, carry out the dirty work in large projects, performs some aweful individual acts against people because of their category not what they have done, etc.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:20 pm
by Skepdick
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:56 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:51 pm Do we need any particular word to think Iago is terrible and Othello extremely flawed?
Apparently, we do. You used "terrible" and "flawed." These are value judgments. Value judgments have to be grounded in something, or they are mere opinions.
You seem to prefer grounded value-judgments over ungrounded value-judgments.

What's the grounding for this preference?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:58 pm
by Immanuel Can
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:07 pm The other side is the way the concept of evil has been used, for example, to contribute to getting people without much power to join in genocide or killing witches or dragging people behind pickup trucks and support it, carry out the dirty work in large projects, performs some aweful individual acts against people because of their category not what they have done, etc.
That's not the cause. In such cases, using a negative evaluation...whether "evil," or "poisonous," or "wicked," or "impure," or "disease-laden," or "avaricious," or the word you chose -- "awful" -- or whatever...are just the illegitimate means used to demonize a group. But drop "evil," and all the synonyms remain, still handy for the purposes of any such demonization. The demonization will happen anyway, because its wellspring is not in language but in belief prior to the application of language.

As I suggested, will rapes become less frequent if we stop calling them "rape"? :shock: It seem to me, rather, that rapes would simply become more unnameable, less identifiable and more tolerated because of a lack of a way of properly classifying them. The impulse that gives rise to rape will still rage unchecked, then.

Language is not the cause of the problem. The abuse of language is one of the effects of a wicked ideology. And again, it makes no arugment against the rightful uses of the same language.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:42 pm
by Gary Childress
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:27 pm As dramatic symbols, Shakespeare's Weird Sisters seem to be preeminently adequate and successful. In appearance, speech, and action they seem intended to suggest accurately such witches and witchcraft as were familiar to the Elizabethan public. They are desiccated, hag-like creatures with choppy fingers, skinny lips, and beards, who dwell preferably in the murk of desert places and rejoice in upheavals of nature. Upon occasion, indeed, they themselves brew storms on land and tempests at sea, thus destroying the products of men's hands at home and distressing or sinking ships abroad. Their sail-boats are sieves. Associated with them in ceremonial dances --conducted under the influence of the magic number three and its multiples -- are evil spirits in the form of cats and toads or sometimes in the likeness of a woman; they employ parts of dismembered dead bodies, toads, and adders in winding up their necromantic charms. Compacts with the devil and his angels assure them a certain prophetic power, though they are likely to accomplish their ends by means of half-truths. All the hocus-pocus of magic rites seems to be familiar to them.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:49 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:58 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:07 pm The other side is the way the concept of evil has been used, for example, to contribute to getting people without much power to join in genocide or killing witches or dragging people behind pickup trucks and support it, carry out the dirty work in large projects, performs some aweful individual acts against people because of their category not what they have done, etc.
That's not the cause. In such cases, using a negative evaluation...whether "evil," or "poisonous," or "wicked," or "impure," or "disease-laden," or "avaricious," or the word you chose -- "awful" -- or whatever...are just the illegitimate means used to demonize a group. But drop "evil," and all the synonyms remain, still handy for the purposes of any such demonization. The demonization will happen anyway, because its wellspring is not in language but in belief prior to the application of language.

As I suggested, will rapes become less frequent if we stop calling them "rape"? :shock: It seem to me, rather, that rapes would simply become more unnameable, less identifiable and more tolerated because of a lack of a way of properly classifying them. The impulse that gives rise to rape will still rage unchecked, then.

Language is not the cause of the problem. The abuse of language is one of the effects of a wicked ideology. And again, it makes no arugment against the rightful uses of the same language.
Is there such a thing as a non-wicked "ideology"?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:57 pm
by promethean75
i might agree with IC, and only in philosophically technical debates and discussions about the meaning of the word 'evil' are there any real problems. in the ordinary everyday use of the word it signifies what is considered morally reprehensible by, normally, the vast majority of people. Nobody ever goes '*gasp* omg 'evil'!? ... what do u mean?!!!'

u could substitute another word for 'evil' and it wouldn't change much if anything about the feeling of wrongness, the visceral intellectual dissonance u experience when confronted with the thing u consider 'evil'. unfortunately what is felt to be 'evil' is not universal to all cultures e.g., those third world cannibal country people that post videos of themselves cooking a person in a pot and just be chillin like its nothing out of the ordinary.

now u gotta somehow argue that the development of the moral conscience and intellect follows or runs concurrent with the social and economic development of the people. but to do this, u gotta admit an evolutionary perspective rather than a religious one becuz you're basically saying yeah, we came from animals and a couple billion people still are animals or at least act like em.

but now you're taking a socially deterministic constructivist position and denying these heathens their freewill. so what's it gonna be?

if there is no christian god, there may still be a chance to create a morality without em that's just as badass. but u have to sacrifice a great deal of your political reputation becuz u are essentially saying that yes, peoples and societies are ranked and some are inferior to others, etc. it all depends on evolution.

no god, no intrinsic value to humans. 'equal before god' is fascist nonsense. to have a comprehension understanding and feeling of what is 'evil', u gotta be at a certain standard of progress and development as a society. if not, you'll be like one of those illiterate savages. yeah. take a good look at em. that's what we used to be. now you're not gonna tell me we are just 'fallen' again and god prolly oughta do another flood or that these animals have merely 'failed to find the lord'. you're not gonna seduce me into believing that there's an inner abraham Lincoln in these savages and that it just has to be brought out and nurtured.

no man morality is an emergent property of the socio-economic relationship between homos and sapiens, and their brains are literally modified by all kinds of operant conditioning that takes place during life... the formative years that instill in u the normative values you're gonna have and hold throughout your dasein. like extending the right to life to all people in general, the right to own property, the respect for privacy, right to speak freely, right to petition your government, etc. all this began with exchanging goods and storing/managing surplus. we are not utterly complex  quantum Cartesian computers man. just monkeys that got smart becuz we started making and trading shit.

but none of that shit happens unless and until u reach a certain level of civility, and that level of civility is not reached by or becuz of religion. it's reached by internal plumbing and air conditioning, and unless u have it, u may end up being an inferior homo or sapien.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:08 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 4:49 pm Is there such a thing as a non-wicked "ideology"?
Possibly. But it's an irrelevant point. I only used the word to substitute for "evil," since people don't like that word.

What would you call Nazism? Would you regard it as "wicked," or merely "bad," or merely "unfortunate"?