Ukraine Crisis

[seeds]

M. Popeye, and as per usual M. Seeds go into righteous trance states of hyperactive posturing as they read from the Lists of Horror of the Terrible Evils committed by the US. Often, this is a group-participation ritual. Ressentiment theatrics.

Imagine living in a big and beautiful mansion that, in exchange for you doing a few menial chores, all of your needs pertaining to food, shelter, protection from enemies, and even entertainment will be met.

Next, imagine exploring the mansion and discovering a hidden passageway behind one of the numerous fireplaces - a passageway that leads to a long dark stairwell that descends into a vast network of subterranean chambers.

Next, imagine that these subterranean chambers are, in fact, repositories for the mountainous heaps of the dead and rotting bodies of the millions of innocent men, women, and children that the builders of the mansion...

(either directly through imperialistic wars, or indirectly through some sort of political treachery)

...had to murder...

(and continue to murder)

...in order to steal their resources so that the builders could continue providing you with all of the amenities that you've become accustomed to while living in the big and beautiful mansion.

Indeed, one of the chambers contains a Mount Everest sized pile of the tiny dead bodies of the 500,000 Iraqi children that the U.S. Secretary of State, Madelaine Albright said was "...worth the price..." of achieving one of America's goals in that region.

(And you guys think Russia is bad. )

Anyway, setting aside the melodramatic nature of my response, the question is, is it really a case of "hyperactive posturing" or "ressentiment theatrics" if a person such as myself...

(being compelled by a feeling of repulsion and shame at what I witnessed in the metaphorical basement of the metaphorical mansion in which I live)

...complains about the immoral means by which the mansion is maintained?

Or...

...Am I to understand that even though the unforgettable stench of those rotting corpses will linger in your memory forever, you, M. Jacobi (M. Hyperbolic Apollyon) would simply be able to ignore this subterranean discovery and go back upstairs and carry on as if you had never come across the hidden stairwell?

(Hmm, by Jove, I think I may have answered my question by referring to you by your real name of "Apollyon" )
_______

[Atla]

Where did Egypt come from? Like rogue ChatGPT you are hallucinating. Clear your cache and let’s continue…

So you didn't move to Egypt, just your parents? So you grew up in France. I fully understand why someone wouldn't want to choose the French identity, ugh. "Everyone" hates the French, even the French.

The Paraguayan identity.. Paraguay may be the country that had the single most tragic, horrific war in the world in the last 200 years. Such an identity could be a difficult burden. Is Paraguay where you belong "biologically"?

And then you're split between a Latin-American identity and the US identity?

(Most of the world no longer cares what an US American thinks, and never cared what a Latin American thinks. Sorry.)

[Atla]

M. Popeye, and as per usual M. Seeds go into righteous trance states of hyperactive posturing as they read from the Lists of Horror of the Terrible Evils committed by the US. Often, this is a group-participation ritual. Ressentiment theatrics.

Imagine living in a big and beautiful mansion that, in exchange for you doing a few menial chores, all of your needs pertaining to food, shelter, protection from enemies, and even entertainment will be met.

Next, imagine exploring the mansion and discovering a hidden passageway behind one of the numerous fireplaces - a passageway that leads to a long dark stairwell that descends into a vast network of subterranean chambers.

Next, imagine that these subterranean chambers are, in fact, repositories for the mountainous heaps of the dead and rotting bodies of the millions of innocent men, women, and children that the builders of the mansion...

(either directly through imperialistic wars, or indirectly through some sort of political treachery)

...had to murder...

(and continue to murder)

...in order to steal their resources so that the builders could continue providing you with all of the amenities that you've become accustomed to while living in the big and beautiful mansion.

Indeed, one of the chambers contains a Mount Everest sized pile of the tiny dead bodies of the 500,000 Iraqi children that the U.S. Secretary of State, Madelaine Albright said was "...worth the price..." of achieving one of America's goals in that region.

(And you guys think Russia is bad. )

Anyway, setting aside the melodramatic nature of my response, the question is, is it really a case of "hyperactive posturing" or "ressentiment theatrics" if a person such as myself...

(being compelled by a feeling of repulsion and shame at what I witnessed in the metaphorical basement of the metaphorical mansion in which I live)

...complains about the immoral means by which the mansion is maintained?

Or...

...Am I to understand that even though the unforgettable stench of those rotting corpses will linger in your memory forever, you, M. Jacobi (M. Hyperbolic Apollyon) would simply be able to ignore this subterranean discovery and go back upstairs and carry on as if you had never come across the hidden stairwell?

(Hmm, by Jove, I think I may have answered my question by referring to you by your real name of "Apollyon" )
_______

Yes Russia also kills millions and can also permanently occupy countries (for example hundreds of thousands of children killed in the SU-Afghanistan war). It's even worse than the US, imagine what would have happened if Russia/SU had won the Cold War.

[Atla]

Let's try an AI summary:

Since 1900, estimates suggest the following:

Russia/Soviet Union:

Roughly 20-27 million people killed, including those from wars, purges, forced labor, and famines. This includes the Stalinist purges, Gulag system, Holodomor famine, and deaths from both world wars.

US/NATO:

Estimated to have killed about 20-30 million people, primarily due to wars such as the Vietnam War, Iraq War, Afghan War, Korean War, and various interventions, including in Latin America and the Middle East.

These numbers are estimates and vary depending on sources and definitions of casualties.

Since the end of World War II, estimates of the number of people killed by Russia/the Soviet Union and the U.S./NATO vary depending on the conflicts involved, but here are rough figures:

Russia/Soviet Union: Over 20 million people are estimated to have been killed as a result of Soviet policies, military actions, and wars, including casualties from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Chechen wars, and repression under Stalin, as well as indirect consequences like famines and purges.

U.S./NATO: Over 10 million people are estimated to have been killed due to U.S. and NATO military actions, including wars in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other military interventions since WWII.

These figures include both direct combat fatalities and indirect deaths, such as from famine, disease, and other consequences of war. The actual numbers can vary depending on sources and methodologies.

Since 1990, estimates of the number of people killed by Russia and the U.S./NATO are as follows:

Russia: Roughly 1.5 to 2 million people are estimated to have been killed in conflicts involving Russia since 1990. This includes casualties from the wars in Chechnya, the Second Chechen War, the 2008 war in Georgia, the annexation of Crimea, the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, and Russia's involvement in Syria.

U.S./NATO: Around 2 to 3 million people are estimated to have been killed by U.S. and NATO military actions since 1990. This includes casualties from the Gulf War, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, NATO interventions in the Balkans, and other conflicts like Libya and various operations in Africa and the Middle East.

These numbers include both direct combat casualties and indirect deaths from factors like displacement, famine, and disease.

[phyllo]

Let's try an AI summary:

Those numbers are useless without a detailed breakdown that can be verified.

But even without details, there is something clearly wrong with the numbers.

This:

Since 1900, estimates suggest the following:

Russia/Soviet Union:

Roughly 20-27 million people killed, including those from wars, purges, forced labor, and famines. This includes the Stalinist purges, Gulag system, Holodomor famine, and deaths from both world wars.

and this:

Since the end of World War II, estimates of the number of people killed by Russia/the Soviet Union and the U.S./NATO vary depending on the conflicts involved, but here are rough figures:

Russia/Soviet Union: Over 20 million people are estimated to have been killed as a result of Soviet policies, military actions, and wars, including casualties from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Chechen wars, and repression under Stalin, as well as indirect consequences like famines and purges.

don't add up.

If means that between 1900 and the end of WW2 in 1945, there were from 0 to 7 million fatalities.

But there were huge numbers killed during WW2, 1 million in the Russian Civil War, 2.5-4 million deaths during Holodomor alone. And that's not even counting the purges and dekulakization.

No way can that add up to 0-7 million.

[Gary Childress]

M. Popeye, and as per usual M. Seeds go into righteous trance states of hyperactive posturing as they read from the Lists of Horror of the Terrible Evils committed by the US. Often, this is a group-participation ritual. Ressentiment theatrics.

Imagine living in a big and beautiful mansion that, in exchange for you doing a few menial chores, all of your needs pertaining to food, shelter, protection from enemies, and even entertainment will be met.

Next, imagine exploring the mansion and discovering a hidden passageway behind one of the numerous fireplaces - a passageway that leads to a long dark stairwell that descends into a vast network of subterranean chambers.

Next, imagine that these subterranean chambers are, in fact, repositories for the mountainous heaps of the dead and rotting bodies of the millions of innocent men, women, and children that the builders of the mansion...

(either directly through imperialistic wars, or indirectly through some sort of political treachery)

...had to murder...

(and continue to murder)

...in order to steal their resources so that the builders could continue providing you with all of the amenities that you've become accustomed to while living in the big and beautiful mansion.

Indeed, one of the chambers contains a Mount Everest sized pile of the tiny dead bodies of the 500,000 Iraqi children that the U.S. Secretary of State, Madelaine Albright said was "...worth the price..." of achieving one of America's goals in that region.

(And you guys think Russia is bad. )

Anyway, setting aside the melodramatic nature of my response, the question is, is it really a case of "hyperactive posturing" or "ressentiment theatrics" if a person such as myself...

(being compelled by a feeling of repulsion and shame at what I witnessed in the metaphorical basement of the metaphorical mansion in which I live)

...complains about the immoral means by which the mansion is maintained?

Or...

...Am I to understand that even though the unforgettable stench of those rotting corpses will linger in your memory forever, you, M. Jacobi (M. Hyperbolic Apollyon) would simply be able to ignore this subterranean discovery and go back upstairs and carry on as if you had never come across the hidden stairwell?

(Hmm, by Jove, I think I may have answered my question by referring to you by your real name of "Apollyon" )
_______

If the above doesn't result in a flood of new residents for psychiatric wards across the US, I don't know what will.

[Atla]

Those numbers are useless without a detailed breakdown that can be verified.

But even without details, there is something clearly wrong with the numbers.

I may have confused the ChatGPT by writing "/" instead of "and". It also doesn't give the same results if I try the same prompt multiple times. It usually gives details too, I just didn't copy that because the post would be too long.

Estimated number of people killed by Russia and the Soviet Union since 1900. Summary only.

Total estimated deaths over this period: 50-60 million. This includes war casualties, purges, famines, and repressions carried out by both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union.

Altogether, estimates suggest that over 40 million people may have died due to policies, wars, repression, and other factors linked to the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union since 1900.

In total, the combined death toll from wars, purges, famines, and repressive policies over more than a century is often estimated to range from 40 to 60 million people.

Total estimate: Roughly 30-50 million people, considering both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union. The numbers can vary depending on sources and methods of estimation.

In total, estimates of deaths caused directly by the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and post-Soviet Russia range from 40 million to 60 million people, depending on the scope of the events considered. These numbers include both deliberate killings and deaths from indirect causes such as famine, forced labor, and war.

-----------------

Estimated number of people killed by the US and NATO since 1900. Summary only.

Overall, the number is difficult to pinpoint exactly, but estimates suggest tens of millions across all conflicts. The impact of U.S. and NATO military actions is profound, with significant civilian casualties in most of these wars.

Overall, the death toll from US and NATO actions since 1900 likely exceeds 10 million, considering both direct combat and indirect effects of interventions like bombings, sanctions, and proxy wars.

In total, the US and NATO's involvement in conflicts since 1900 has resulted in millions of deaths, with estimates often ranging from 10 million to over 20 million, depending on how direct and indirect contributions are counted. These numbers include both military and civilian casualties from the US, NATO forces, and the countries affected by these wars.

Overall, estimates of people killed by the US and NATO since 1900 vary widely, but the total likely exceeds 10 million, with the bulk of the deaths occurring in the 20th and 21st centuries due to direct military actions, bombings, and interventions.

The total number of deaths from US and NATO actions since 1900 is estimated to be in the range of several million, though precise numbers are difficult to calculate due to differing definitions, reporting methods, and the inclusion of civilian deaths in various conflicts.

[phyllo]

I may have confused the ChatGPT by writing "/" instead of "and". It also doesn't give the same results if I try the same prompt multiple times.

That's awful.

Unfortunately, some people will believe anything that a computer tells them. Especially if it confirms their bias.

One has to adopt a healthy skepticism and be prepared to do some research.

[Alexis Jacobi]

If the above doesn't result in a flood of new residents for psychiatric wards across the US, I don't know what will.

At least you will have interesting people to talk to!

Because you are a contributing member of this forum, and because you are open about your on-going mental illness, your social and political confusion, your bizarre sexual perversions when young, your masturbation fixations and habits — all that you bring forward can be, should be, examined as refections of the psychic state of America.

Phyllo (among others) has an issue with the psychological angle. But I think it is as important as any idea-set that we might entertain.

This is why I tried to put in relief the issue of violence, domination, conquest and (let us be honest) every tactic or behavior that lefty progressive “soft men” label as fascism. We must face the facts here. Nationalism, affirmation of self, affirmation of community, nation, one’s ethnicity (if it is the wrong ethnicity), and any sort of conversation or exchange of ideas that involve affirmation of power (etc.) has been labeled fascistic.

The advent of right-tending figures, nationalism champions, the renewal of the sense of what it means to be a man in the sense if defender of one’s self, community, values, power and family — all of this has burst out onto the central stage.

Consider the book Return of the Strong Gods:

Return of the Strong Gods is a thoughtful contribution to American political debate. It is incisively written and full of modern observations. Mr. Reno explains, better than any book I can remember, the present-day progressive's paranoid fear of fascism and neurotic determination to ferret out racism where none exists."—The Wall Street Journal

After the staggering slaughter of back-to-back world wars, the West embraced the ideal of the “open society.” The promise: By liberating ourselves from the old attachments to nation, clan, and religion that had fueled centuries of violence, we could build a prosperous world without borders, freed from dogmas and managed by experts.

But the populism and nationalism that are upending politics in America and Europe are a sign that after three generations, the postwar consensus is breaking down. With compelling insight, R. R. Reno argues that we are witnessing the return of the “strong gods”—the powerful loyalties that bind men to their homeland and to one another.

Reacting to the calamitous first half of the twentieth century, our political, cultural, and financial elites promoted open borders, open markets, and open minds. But this never-ending project of openness has hardened into a set of anti-dogmatic dogmas which destroy the social solidarity rooted in family, faith, and nation. While they worry about the return of fascism, our societies are dissolving.

But man will not tolerate social dissolution indefinitely. He longs to be part of a “we”—the fruit of shared loves—which gives his life meaning. The strong gods will return, Reno warns, in one form or another. Our task is to attend to those that, appealing to our reason as well as our hearts, inspire the best of our traditions. Otherwise, we shall invite the darker gods whose return our open society was intended to forestall.

[phyllo]

The advent of right-tending figures, nationalism champions, the renewal of the sense of what it means to be a man in the sense if defender of one’s self, community, values, power and family — all of this has burst out onto the central stage.

At the same time, denying nationalism, self, community for the people which the "great leader" does not favor. That's the fascism.

It's what Putin does ... he denies Ukraine nationalism, Ukraine self, Ukrainian ethnicity.

It's what Hitler did ... the Aryans are the master race and the Slavs are subhuman. You can do anything to the subhuman.

And it's what Trump attempts to do with respect to Canada and Greenland.

The "right-tending figures" have a win-lose mentality. They win and others lose.

[Alexis Jacobi]

At the same time, denying nationalism, self, community for the people which the "great leader" does not favor. That's the fascism.

You use the label too generally. Throughout all known history, and possibly without exception, powerful, expansionist states conquer, destroy and absorb less powerful polities. The former exalts itself and the latter is diminished.

It's what Putin does ... he denies Ukraine nationalism, Ukraine self, Ukrainian ethnicity.

I wonder if Ukraine would have remained untouched if the US had not provoked Russia.

It's what Hitler did ... the Aryans are the master race and the Slavs are subhuman. You can do anything to the subhuman.

Hitler attempted what England had done successfully. And England recognized a threat and did what was necessary to “strangle it in the crib”.

You are unaware I take it the degree to which the English had nearly precisely the same ideology regarding the Anglo-Saxon racial stock. It was more or less the standard in Europe.

The “Aryan ideology” of the Germans was quite similar but born out of pathological circumstances. Inflicted with social pathology.

And it's what Trump attempts to do with respect to Canada and Greenland.

A huge exaggeration. But that’s how the media systems portray it.

The "right-tending figures" have a win-lose mentality. They win and others lose.

They are generally of a Nietzschean sort. Like Teddy Roosevelt when he took it upon himself to build the Panama Canal. He grabbed Panama from Colombia, gave Panama a psuedo-Independence, engineered an extraordinary feat, using Antillean labor and costing tens of thousands of lives.

In the larger picture it is difficult to say who actually lost. The manoeuvre was audacious (Roosevelt was a Nietzsche reader BTW) and he (and the US) pulled it off.

On one level glorious.

[Walker]

What are your thoughts?

The nefarious shenanigans of the Biden (Democrat) administration appears endless.

The world thought that the war is a David-Goliath situation, what with outmatched but scrappy little Ukraine and its military geniuses holding off the fearsome Russians. Not true.

So Milley was running the whole Ukraine war with Russia without telling the public –report
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... eport.html

“But for nearly three years before Mr. Trump’s return to power, the United States and Ukraine were joined in an extraordinary partnership of intelligence, strategy, planning and technology whose evolution and inner workings have been known only to a small circle of American and allied officials.

“With remarkable transparency, the Pentagon has offered a public accounting of the $66.5 billion in weaponry it has supplied to Ukraine. But a New York Times investigation reveals that America’s involvement in the war was far deeper than previously understood. The secret partnership both guided big-picture battle strategy and funneled precise targeting information down to Ukrainian soldiers in the field.”

[Gary Childress]

What are your thoughts?

The nefarious shenanigans of the Biden (Democrat) administration appears endless.

The world thought that the war is a David-Goliath situation, what with outmatched but scrappy little Ukraine and its military geniuses holding off the fearsome Russians. Not true.

So Milley was running the whole Ukraine war with Russia without telling the public –report
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... eport.html

“But for nearly three years before Mr. Trump’s return to power, the United States and Ukraine were joined in an extraordinary partnership of intelligence, strategy, planning and technology whose evolution and inner workings have been known only to a small circle of American and allied officials.

“With remarkable transparency, the Pentagon has offered a public accounting of the $66.5 billion in weaponry it has supplied to Ukraine. But a New York Times investigation reveals that America’s involvement in the war was far deeper than previously understood. The secret partnership both guided big-picture battle strategy and funneled precise targeting information down to Ukrainian soldiers in the field.”

Are we sure about this? Could this be Russian propaganda? ChatGPT frames it differently.

You said:
Is the Pentagon orchestrating the war in Ukraine on behalf of the Ukrainian Army?

ChatGPT said:
The Pentagon provides military aid, intelligence, and strategic support to Ukraine, but it is not directly orchestrating the war on behalf of the Ukrainian Army. The Ukrainian military independently conducts operations, while the U.S. and other Western allies supply weapons, training, and intelligence to aid Ukraine in its defense against Russia. The extent of U.S. involvement is subject to official policy decisions, which prioritize supporting Ukraine rather than directly managing its military efforts.

https://chatgpt.com/share/67eb4b56-1090 ... 54e27c6c1c

[Walker]

Are we sure about this? Could this be Russian propaganda? ChatGPT frames it differently.

It's a quote from a NY Times investigation.

[Gary Childress]

Are we sure about this? Could this be Russian propaganda? ChatGPT frames it differently.

It's a quote from a NY Times investigation.

Hmm...I see a salient point there.