The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 4:32 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 3:50 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 12:50 am
Don't be silly, Gary. This is too important a topic for fake misunderstandings, phony grandstanding, or shallow thinking.

I'll say it again.

People who have meaning are often happy, even in difficult times. But people who chase happiness as if it were a separate thing usually end up trying to grasp the wind.

And if I chase meaning. Will I end up "grasping the wind", or will I find the meaning I'm looking for?

You don't chase meaning. That's the difference. You choose to do things that are inherently meaningful, or what you're doing is devoting yourself to things that are not meaningful.

So your next question, Gary, is what do you think the meaning or purpose of your life is, or should be?

And He is the author of our Faith. Amen.

You can live on fire like the sun that gives life energy or you can choose to rest in peace.

Something is "inherently meaningful"?

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 1:26 pm Something is "inherently meaningful"?

Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

meanings differ between observers

-Imp

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 1:26 pm Something is "inherently meaningful"?

Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

I just wonder why some people lose their lucidity, as Nietzsche did. Yet others can endure the most unimaginable suffering and pain, yet still die happy and content, because they understand what God is? What are your thoughts about that, if you don’t mind sharing of course?

Great. Sounds like Fairy has become "born again" and is now a "Christian". So do you believe in talking snakes and that Noah collected animals from the Arctic Circle to put in his ark so he could save them from the flood? Christianity is a scam by idiots for idiots.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 1:26 pm Something is "inherently meaningful"?

Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

Yes. Yes. We all know. Only God can give the world meaning; humans can't understand anything unless God tells us what something means. Therefore, atheists and blasphemers are all going to hell.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 9:06 am Great. Sounds like Fairy has become "born again" and is now a "Christian". So do you believe in talking snakes and that Noah collected animals from the Arctic Circle to put in his ark so he could save them from the flood? Christianity is a scam by idiots for idiots.

the snake and Noah were Old T...

besides, you should have known that after Noah got 2 male cows, it was a pair of bull...

-Imp

Fairy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 8:56 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 1:26 pm Something is "inherently meaningful"?

Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

I just wonder why some people lose their lucidity, as Nietzsche did. Yet others can endure the most unimaginable suffering and pain, yet still die happy and content, because they understand what God is? What are your thoughts about that, if you don’t mind sharing of course?

I don't mind. Let me suggest that the answer is nothing we can't understand.

I know you know what it is to be in labour. You know that quite horrible pain is coming. How long it will last, you cannot know in advance. How many contractions will there be? Will there be ripping? Will a caesarean be necessary? An episeotomy? How much blood? Will the epidural work? There are plenty of worries, and much pain to be endured, plausibly. How long will healing take? Will there be any birth difficulties? Who can say?

How then can any woman accept that? How can a woman even laugh with joy at the end of it? Is it not because she holds her new son or daughter close to her heart and rejoices that a new life has come into the world, with new love, new hopes...but how has she so quickly forgotten the pain, the fear, the suffering?

Because it had meaning. It was all aimed at the glorious goal of a new child. And when you see that your suffering as produced that at which it was aimed, it's all not only bearable, but joy follows it.

So it is with all suffering. If there is purpose, meaning, direction, value in what is being suffered-for, then it is not only possible to endure it, but even to be happy. But if all that suffering were for nothing, then how could one be joyful?

That's life. The things we suffer that have meaning are endurable...even heroic...and even happy. They can be, as we say, "worth it all." The things we suffer because of our own stupidity, veniality or the meanness of the world itself, these things deprive us of happiness. It's meaning that makes all things worthwhile.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 9:41 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 1:26 pm Something is "inherently meaningful"?

Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

Yes. Yes. We all know. Only God can give the world meaning

Well, if you doubt it, let's test it.

What meaning can your life possibly have, if the universe in which you find yourself has no Creator, no purpose, no direction, no plan, no actual value, and its outcome is your extinction? Let's see what could fill that hole.

What do you say?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:03 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 8:56 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm
Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

I just wonder why some people lose their lucidity, as Nietzsche did. Yet others can endure the most unimaginable suffering and pain, yet still die happy and content, because they understand what God is? What are your thoughts about that, if you don’t mind sharing of course?

I don't mind. Let me suggest that the answer is nothing we can't understand.

I know you know what it is to be in labour. You know that quite horrible pain is coming. How long it will last, you cannot know in advance. How many contractions will there be? Will there be ripping? Will a caesarean be necessary? An episeotomy? How much blood? Will the epidural work? There are plenty of worries, and much pain to be endured, plausibly. How long will healing take? Will there be any birth difficulties? Who can say?

How then can any woman accept that? How can a woman even laugh with joy at the end of it? Is it not because she holds her new son or daughter close to her heart and rejoices that a new life has come into the world, with new love, new hopes...but how has she so quickly forgotten the pain, the fear, the suffering?

Because it had meaning. It was all aimed at the glorious goal of a new child. And when you see that your suffering as produced that at which it was aimed, it's all not only bearable, but joy follows it.

So it is with all suffering. If there is purpose, meaning, direction, value in what is being suffered-for, then it is not only possible to endure it, but even to be happy. But if all that suffering were for nothing, then how could one be joyful?

That's life. The things we suffer that have meaning are endurable...even heroic...and even happy. They can be, as we say, "worth it all." The things we suffer because of our own stupidity, veniality or the meanness of the world itself, these things deprive us of happiness. It's meaning that makes all things worthwhile.

Amazing. Absofukinlutely amazing.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I have to agree.

Having experienced the excruciating pain of 4 natural births after choosing the natural way, even as epidural was offered I didn’t fancy the palaver of such a procedure. So chose to put my faith in natures way and trust it to deliver. I was lucky as each birth was without any complications. And yes, the joy and relief that comes after the pain is indescribably profound and satisfying. It’s almost like watching yourself perform miracles, it’s amazing and despite the pain, you soon become aware of the astonishing feats the human body is capable of, and what it can do all by itself is miraculous to observe.

Also experienced a few extremely deep and dark nights of the soul, and survived even those, yes, the most difficult challenges in life are all endurable, and I’m eternally grateful for each experience as they have had a profound impact on my life transforming it into better and better versions of myself. I have started to appreciate the miracle of being alive with more compassion empathy and resilience, I just simply understand God’s ways, it takes my breath away. I have no fear of dying and know that when I do my body will dissolve into the ocean of God’s infinite Love. I’ve been through some really unimaginable shit in my personal life, but none of what’s happened to me has changed the fact that I’m still in love with life and have never become bitter or resentful. I’m still standing and shining brighter than ever. I have absolute trust in God’s providence, for those who trust in the process of life to know what it’s doing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:05 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 9:41 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm
Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

Yes. Yes. We all know. Only God can give the world meaning

Well, if you doubt it, let's test it.

What meaning can your life possibly have, if the universe in which you find yourself has no Creator, no purpose, no direction, no plan, no actual value, and its outcome is your extinction? Let's see what could fill that hole.

What do you say?

My life has the same meaning as yours does, with or without a God.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:03 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 8:56 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:15 pm
Yes, good point.

If you don't believe things can be inherently meaningful, that God has imbued them with meaning, you can't have any meaning. Of course, you can fake one, imagine one, make one up for yourself, to keep yourself from Nihilism; but you will always know it's a fake.

The Godless universe is inherently meaningless. Nietzsche saw it, and that realization consumed his "madman." He did not die happy.

I just wonder why some people lose their lucidity, as Nietzsche did. Yet others can endure the most unimaginable suffering and pain, yet still die happy and content, because they understand what God is? What are your thoughts about that, if you don’t mind sharing of course?

I don't mind. Let me suggest that the answer is nothing we can't understand.

I know you know what it is to be in labour. You know that quite horrible pain is coming. How long it will last, you cannot know in advance. How many contractions will there be? Will there be ripping? Will a caesarean be necessary? An episeotomy? How much blood? Will the epidural work? There are plenty of worries, and much pain to be endured, plausibly. How long will healing take? Will there be any birth difficulties? Who can say?

How then can any woman accept that? How can a woman even laugh with joy at the end of it? Is it not because she holds her new son or daughter close to her heart and rejoices that a new life has come into the world, with new love, new hopes...but how has she so quickly forgotten the pain, the fear, the suffering?

Because it had meaning. It was all aimed at the glorious goal of a new child. And when you see that your suffering as produced that at which it was aimed, it's all not only bearable, but joy follows it.

So it is with all suffering. If there is purpose, meaning, direction, value in what is being suffered-for, then it is not only possible to endure it, but even to be happy. But if all that suffering were for nothing, then how could one be joyful?

That's life. The things we suffer that have meaning are endurable...even heroic...and even happy. They can be, as we say, "worth it all." The things we suffer because of our own stupidity, veniality or the meanness of the world itself, these things deprive us of happiness. It's meaning that makes all things worthwhile.

Things can have a bad meaning to. Just having "meaning" is a given whenever a human being is present. What you mean to say is that when one feels the world has a good meaning, then there is joy. When someone believes something has a bad meaning, there is sorrow. Meaning is there regardless. Meaning exists wherever a human being exists. Meaning doesn't depend upon the existence or nonexistence of a God.

To say that a person who doesn't believe in the existence of a God, therefore, does not have "meaning" in life is false.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 9:06 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:05 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 9:41 am

Yes. Yes. We all know. Only God can give the world meaning

Well, if you doubt it, let's test it.

What meaning can your life possibly have, if the universe in which you find yourself has no Creator, no purpose, no direction, no plan, no actual value, and its outcome is your extinction? Let's see what could fill that hole.

What do you say?

My life has the same meaning as yours does, with or without a God.

By the hand of the almighty God who holds the earth up. The world hangs on Nothing.

Figure out who you are in relation to the absolute. That’s your only job worth doing. Do the work, or don’t do the work, it’s totally your choice, no one else can do your job better than you. It’s your job to make your job work for you. Forget about others, for they too are doing their jobs, it’s not your job to carry the whole world on your shoulders.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2026 8:10 pm Second reply of the thread, I posted a pdf link of 13 misunderstandings about evolution And I quoted the misunderstanding about evolution being random.

Did IC bother reading it? Nope.

The evolutionary theory in his head is much more convenient. As is his version of any position he disagrees with. For some strange reason, he knows opposing positions better than the people who have them AND these positions in his mind are easier to counter. What an odd coincidence!!?!?!