Philosophy Now Forum

You are taking things way too personally. Put your feelings about me to the side. Do it for the thread, other participants, and the forum.

What do you mean by supernatural?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:24 amSomething about Israel just makes even reasonable people a little crazy. It seems nobody cares a fig that Bashaar al Asaad massacres hundreds of thousands of Arabs, or Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan do the same, and Western liberals don't even care when people kill or expel Palestinians, as the Yemenis did in such numbers. But let israel do anything to preserve its survival, and they howl like demons.

It was quite a thing to see the presidents of Harvard, Penn and MIT refuse to say that advocating the genocide of Jews constituted even so much as official "harassment." You would think these dyed-in-the-wool liberal Lefties would be all compassion and empathy...but nope. It doesn't matter who they are, they just lose their minds.

One might also say it's something supernatural...

Having followed Israel related politics for quite some time, and having read many tracts in support of the Israeli state since before high school, and having at one time held to the Zionist perspective, I recognize first the general tone of what IC has written. What that tone implies is something like:

"I have caught you in a lie. You focus on Israel's crimes because you are antisemites. Your concern for Gazan Palestinians (or West Bank Palestinians) is actually a sham. Because if you were really concerned for mass killing, and mass injustice, you would also be up in arms about these [a variable list follows] atrocities".

If it can be said that "something about Israel just makes even reasonable people a little crazy", and in this case IC means people who take a stand against Israel and, to degrees, defend Palestinians, then it is also logically true that those who defend Israel or explain Israeli crimes and refuse to examine the issue through a rational nuance, that these two are "a little crazy" in their reactions.

The reasons why Israel, and Jewish issues, are constantly at the forefront is not an un-worthwhile topic to examine. It is not hard to find the reasons why this is a *hot topic* when other topics don't hold people's interest. Obviously, the Jewish issue and the Jewish question is entirely central to the postwar perspective in the Postwar era. In this sense the plight of Jews, the oppression of Jews, has been inserted as a substitute for the suffering and oppression of Jesus Christ. It is the Jews who are the world's *metaphysical victims* and what then oppresses them? What *supernatural* force or entity?

This is what, of course, IC refers to. In his perception-system the Jews are, above all others, God's people. Everything about them, their history, their scriptures, their prophecies, outshine any other people in crucial importance. So is it surprising then that Jewish issues and Jewish concerns, and Jewish history, is constantly at the forefront? No, of course not. Evangelical Christians and Christian Zionists have elevated Jews and Israel to a special level. They are presented as more than just some people. In fact everything that happens to them is followed with unnatural focus within the Evangelical community. The return of Jesus depends on what Jews do and what happens in Israel. Bizarrely, horrible things must unfold for Jews and Israel, so that Messiah can return and occupy the metaphysical throne in Jerusalem.

So Manny, you dolt, how can you actually ask the question you do? Again, I suggest that everything about all your positions is determined by irrational presuppositions that you hold to. Your shtick is that you are rational, logical and indeed mathematical, but at the very core of your belief is the stuff of mass-hallucinations and projection. Is this getting any clearer?

But let israel do anything to preserve its survival, and they howl like demons.

Now hold on a second here, Buster! I have been referring to the demiurge that you worship as a figure having more in common with God's demonic opposite than with a Being of Light. You cannot steal my thunder without repercussions. This is an outrage!

But here is the real fact: Opposition to *the Jews*, and to Israel, in your mind, is indeed a symptom of demonic possession. Or to have come under the influence of a demonic power. Those who examine the issue of Israel today and now must see that within the Israeli mind and within the Jewish mind these really are ultimate metaphysical battles. I am not making this up. When Netanyahu referred to Amalek as Jewry's ultimate and terrible enemy, and implied that this is what Israel is actually fighting, he meant it. And if you refer then to the Rabbis and the real religious fanatics within Orthodoxy [for example Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the Seventh Chabad Rebbe and a vast influence within the Haredi movement].

If you think that Christian fanatics have bizarre beliefs, and dangerous beliefs that necessarily push events toward conflicts with horrible potential outcomes, my suggestion is to see that all of this derives from extremely irrational Jewish belief about the End Times, the arrival of the Jewish Moshiach, and that all of this bears DIRECTLY on what is going on on Israel today and right now in this unprecedented attack on Gaza (and hopped-up attacks in the West Bank).

So again Manny: how can you ask your smirkingly stupid question? You are deeply involved in these beliefs. Your defense of Israeli crimes indicates that you have not ever really thought things through. You project onto Jews and Israelis that they are Sons of Light, and you also believe that you are a Son of Light, following the One True God and therefore protected from the consequences of your affiliations. You do not have to worry about consequences. That is one of the advantages of being on God's Team, right?

For this reason I could not care less about your inane rehearsals on this forum. What concerns me, and what should concern us all, is that lunatic people, invested in hallucinations, have the power to insert themselves into world-events and, psychologically, set up many of the events and outcomes that we witness.

The framing of the Israel-Palestinian conflict has always had as its backdrop the pattern of the conquest of Canaan as it is pictured in the biblical stories. This framing operated among the atheists as well as among the most dedicated religionists. And Christian Zionists have been sucked into the same enactments and rehearsals.

It was quite a thing to see the presidents of Harvard, Penn and MIT refuse to say that advocating the genocide of Jews constituted even so much as official "harassment." You would think these dyed-in-the-wool liberal Lefties would be all compassion and empathy...but nope. It doesn't matter who they are, they just lose their minds.

This is an interesting paragraph, and it is worthy of disassembly and analysis.

First, it is obvious that extreme forms of idea-control, thought-control, concept-control and the elimination of the free-speech (and free thought) rights in America, now have the upper hand. You are not allowed to think freely and to state what you believe. So we need to understand that this has happened, that such repressive methods are being employed, and that there will be consequences for those who do not toe the Party Line.

The most virulent expression of thought repression and speech repression has come up in relation to criticism of Israel and, as well, opposition to the policies of the Israeli state, which is all lumped together under the accusation of antisemitism. That accusation when it is made can destroy everything a person has, in addition to their reputation.

So let's get real people. What is going on in Israel today is tied in so many different ways with issues, problems, conflicts and concerns which are central ones to our cultures today. Think about it: How could it really be otherwise.

Note to Immanuel: I realize that you get one devastating beating after another. Your battered head does not get time to heal! And then *boom* you get beaten again. But try to see it is not you-singular I am beating. What should concern us all is far larger.

For this reason, and as a magnanimous gesture, I wish to gift you some relief.

Here, brother -- use it liberally! I pray that your Demiurge will also rain down blessing on you!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:24 amSomething about Israel just makes even reasonable people a little crazy... let israel do anything to preserve its survival, and they howl like demons.

Now hold on a second here, Buster!...

There we are!

QED.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:07 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 2:24 amSomething about Israel just makes even reasonable people a little crazy... let israel do anything to preserve its survival, and they howl like demons.

Now hold on a second here, Buster!...

There we are!

QED.

So I take it that your view is that Palestinians in the occupied territories should just accept their fate and allow themselves to slowly die off into oblivion as Israel slowly forces them off the occupied territories through continued settlement of those territories? Does the same thing apply to us, IC? If the indigenous natives of North America were to somehow get the upper hand and take over, should you and I accept our fate and go by their rules, possibly even to the point that you and I are relegated to 'second class' citizens of Canada and the United States, respectively?

¯\_(*_*)_/¯

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:36 pm So I take it that your view is that Palestinians in the occupied territories should just accept their fate...

You shouldn't "take" silly things for granted. I never said anything like that, of course, and never would. So you're merely being absurd and fractious.

No, there's only one solution: Hamas must be gone. It's only when Hamas is gone that Israel even CAN stop. Hamas started this mess, Hamas keeps it going, and Hamas is what Israel is trying to eliminate. All the Hamas leaders should walk out of their rat holes with their hands on their heads and surrender, in order to preserve the precious lives of their people. And if they don't, then the international community should support the rooting out of the entire rotten bunch.

That's the real solution. And there's no solution while Hamas will not let there be one.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:40 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:36 pm So I take it that your view is that Palestinians in the occupied territories should just accept their fate...

You shouldn't "take" silly things for granted. I never said anything like that, of course, and never would. So you're merely being absurd and fractious.

No, there's only one solution: Hamas must be gone. It's only when Hamas is gone that Israel even CAN stop. Hamas started this mess, Hamas keeps it going, and Hamas is what Israel is trying to eliminate. All the Hamas leaders should walk out of their rat holes with their hands on their heads and surrender, in order to preserve the precious lives of their people. And if they don't, then the international community should support the rooting out of the entire rotten bunch.

That's the real solution. And there's no solution while Hamas will not let there be one.

Yes. I agree. It would be nice if Hamas would stand up and account for their actions, however, they don't seem to be doing that. Should Israel take account for its actions and stop settling in the West Bank and/or give Palestinians in the occupied territories full citizenship of Israel? Or what is your solution to the problems of the Palestinians in the occupied territories?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:44 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:40 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:36 pm So I take it that your view is that Palestinians in the occupied territories should just accept their fate...

You shouldn't "take" silly things for granted. I never said anything like that, of course, and never would. So you're merely being absurd and fractious.

No, there's only one solution: Hamas must be gone. It's only when Hamas is gone that Israel even CAN stop. Hamas started this mess, Hamas keeps it going, and Hamas is what Israel is trying to eliminate. All the Hamas leaders should walk out of their rat holes with their hands on their heads and surrender, in order to preserve the precious lives of their people. And if they don't, then the international community should support the rooting out of the entire rotten bunch.

That's the real solution. And there's no solution while Hamas will not let there be one.

Yes. I agree. It would be nice if Hamas would stand up and account for the actions, however, they don't seem to be doing that.

Then the international community should send troops to assist Israel to root them out. They're homicidal maniacs who have already proudly announced that they will not stop short of the complete genocide of Israel, and has shown they haven't the slightest compunction about killing their own people, using hospital patients as pawns, starving refugees, assassinating opponents, raping civilians, and so forth.

Should Israel take account for its actions stop settling in the West Bank and/or give Palestinians in the occupied territories full citizenship of Israel?

Israel already made that offer repeatedly. Palestinian authorities have consistently refused to accept any such agreement. So it's not clear what arrangement they would even accept. However, the first step is perfectly clear: Hamas must be gone.

If Hamas were moral, they would surrender. That's in everybody's best interests: Israel's the Palestinian people's, and even their own. If they surrendered, they'd stop being active combatants, and become prisoners of war; and the international community could start to hold Israel to account for how they are treated legally, and make sure they were tried fairly and sentenced justly. As it is, they're daring Israel to kill them to the last man, and giving no other option. So that's not going to work out well for anybody.

But it's evident that Hamas is not moral. They're unwilling to do the slightest right thing -- not for Israel, not for the world, and not for their own people. They even use school children and invalids in hospitals as pawns in their homicidal games. So I don't see what choice they're leaving to Israel: if you know somebody's going to kill you the minute they get the chance, do you let them up off the ground?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:03 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:44 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:40 pm
You shouldn't "take" silly things for granted. I never said anything like that, of course, and never would. So you're merely being absurd and fractious.

No, there's only one solution: Hamas must be gone. It's only when Hamas is gone that Israel even CAN stop. Hamas started this mess, Hamas keeps it going, and Hamas is what Israel is trying to eliminate. All the Hamas leaders should walk out of their rat holes with their hands on their heads and surrender, in order to preserve the precious lives of their people. And if they don't, then the international community should support the rooting out of the entire rotten bunch.

That's the real solution. And there's no solution while Hamas will not let there be one.

Yes. I agree. It would be nice if Hamas would stand up and account for the actions, however, they don't seem to be doing that.

Then the international community should send troops to assist Israel to root them out. They're homicidal maniacs who have already proudly announced that they will not stop short of the complete genocide of Israel, and has shown they haven't the slightest compunction about killing their own people, using hospital patients as pawns, starving refugees, assassinating opponents, raping civilians, and so forth.

Well, I agree. The International community should send peacekeepers, however, right now they might get mixed up in the fighting. If Israel would back off its attacks and call for International peacekeepers, that might convince the UN assembly. That's a good point, an excellent one, actually.

Should Israel take account for its actions stop settling in the West Bank and/or give Palestinians in the occupied territories full citizenship of Israel?

Israel already made that offer repeatedly. Palestinian authorities have consistently refused to accept any such agreement.

I wasn't aware that Israel had offered to stop settling the West Bank or allow Palestinians full citizenship of Israel. Would you cite sources for that?

unfortunately it will not stop with Hamas...

half the middle east is filled with Islamists that can tolerate no religious point of view but their own (especially when it concerns lands where "miraculous" events supposedly occurred...)

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:15 pm unfortunately it will not stop with Hamas...

half the middle east is filled with Islamists that can tolerate no religious point of view but their own (especially when it concerns lands where "miraculous" events supposedly occurred...)

-Imp

Jews and Christians seem to believe the same thing concerning "miraculous events" in that region. It'd be nice if everyone in that region would get a grip and get their heads out of 2000 BCE.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:03 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:44 pm

Yes. I agree. It would be nice if Hamas would stand up and account for the actions, however, they don't seem to be doing that.

Then the international community should send troops to assist Israel to root them out. They're homicidal maniacs who have already proudly announced that they will not stop short of the complete genocide of Israel, and has shown they haven't the slightest compunction about killing their own people, using hospital patients as pawns, starving refugees, assassinating opponents, raping civilians, and so forth.

Well, I agree. The International community should send peacekeepers,

Not peacekeepers. Anti-terrorist squads.

Hamas will not allow any "peace," so there's nothing that can be "kept" yet. But if Hamas knew that the international community was coming for them, they just might surrender; and if they were so foolish as not to, then they would shortly be gone, with the fewest innocent Palestinian lives lost. It's the only solution.

Should Israel take account for its actions stop settling in the West Bank and/or give Palestinians in the occupied territories full citizenship of Israel?

Israel already made that offer repeatedly. Palestinian authorities have consistently refused to accept any such agreement.

I wasn't aware that Israel had offered to stop settling the West Bank or allow Palestinians full citizenship of Israel. Would you cite sources for that?

Yes. You can even find it on a Wiki. It's no secret.

First of all Arabs already make up about 21% of Israeli citizens, with about 5% being "others." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel So citizenship has already been freely offered, and accepted by a great many. (Funny that you don't know that already. It maybe speaks to how unfair the press has been about such things.)

As for attempts at a two-state solution (all of which Israel was repeatedly prepared to accept but the Palestinians and their "allies" were repeatedly not) see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:30 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:03 pm
Then the international community should send troops to assist Israel to root them out. They're homicidal maniacs who have already proudly announced that they will not stop short of the complete genocide of Israel, and has shown they haven't the slightest compunction about killing their own people, using hospital patients as pawns, starving refugees, assassinating opponents, raping civilians, and so forth.

Well, I agree. The International community should send peacekeepers,

Not peacekeepers. Anti-terrorist squads.

Hamas will not allow any "peace," so there's nothing that can be "kept" yet. But if Hamas knew that the international community was coming for them, they just might surrender; and if they were so foolish as not to, then they would shortly be gone, with the fewest innocent Palestinian lives lost. It's the only solution.

Israel already made that offer repeatedly. Palestinian authorities have consistently refused to accept any such agreement.

I wasn't aware that Israel had offered to stop settling the West Bank or allow Palestinians full citizenship of Israel. Would you cite sources for that?

Yes. You can even find it on a Wiki. It's no secret.

First of all Arabs already make up about 21% of Israeli citizens, with about 5% being "others." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel So citizenship has already been freely offered, and accepted by a great many. (Funny that you don't know that already. It maybe speaks to how unfair the press has been about such things.)

As for attempts at a two-state solution (all of which Israel was repeatedly prepared to accept but the Palestinians and their "allies" were repeatedly not) see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution.

OK. So it is your contention that Isreal has offered NOT to settle the West Bank and has offered to allow Palestinians in the "occupied territories" full citizenship of Israel? Is that correct? Or is that not your contention? Yes or no will suffice.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:20 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:15 pm unfortunately it will not stop with Hamas...

half the middle east is filled with Islamists that can tolerate no religious point of view but their own (especially when it concerns lands where "miraculous" events supposedly occurred...)

-Imp

Jews and Christians seem to believe the same thing concerning "miraculous events" in that region. It'd be nice if everyone in that region would get a grip and get their heads out of 2000 BCE.

But the "miraculous events" Muslims claim to have taken place could not possible have actually occurred. That's what most people don't know.

Muslims say that the reason for their claim to Israel is "The Night Journey" of Mo. What the composers of the story didn't know, though, was that at the time Mo was reported to have gone to Jerusalem and ascended from the pinnacle of the Temple on a flying steed...there was no Temple in Jerusalem! It was destroyed by the Romans, in 70 AD, and the first mosque wasn't built on the site until 691 AD...and Mo's legendary wingy flight was said by Islamic scholars to have taken place around 621 AD. Consequently, there was not anything even LIKE a "Temple" in Jerusalem during the time period!

What this means is either: 1) that Mo's "Night Journey" was a dream, and he never did any such thing, in which case Islam has no truthful claim to association with Jerusalem, or 2) that he was miraculously transported to Jerusalem, but there was no Temple from which he could ascend, in which case, somebody lied.

Either way, the story is exposed as a total fiction, and Islam has no legit claim on Jerusalem. Apparently the inventors simply did not realize all this, and in aid of inventing a claim on Jerusalem or another elaborate miracle for Mo, put their foot in it by inventing a story that simply couldn't be true, even if a miracle had been involved.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:44 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:20 pm

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:15 pm unfortunately it will not stop with Hamas...

half the middle east is filled with Islamists that can tolerate no religious point of view but their own (especially when it concerns lands where "miraculous" events supposedly occurred...)

-Imp

Jews and Christians seem to believe the same thing concerning "miraculous events" in that region. It'd be nice if everyone in that region would get a grip and get their heads out of 2000 BCE.

But the "miraculous events" Muslims claim to have taken place could not possible have actually occurred. That's what most people don't know.

Muslims say that the reason for their claim to Israel is "The Night Journey" of Mo. What the composers of the story didn't know, though, was that at the time Mo was reported to have gone to Jerusalem and ascended from the pinnacle of the Temple on a flying steed...there was no Temple in Jerusalem! It was destroyed by the Romans, in 70 AD, and the first mosque wasn't built on the site until 691 AD...and Mo's legendary wingy flight was said by Islamic scholars to have taken place around 621 AD. Consequently, there was not anything even LIKE a "Temple" in Jerusalem during the time period!

What this means is either: 1) that Mo's "Night Journey" was a dream, and he never did any such thing, in which case Islam has no truthful claim to association with Jerusalem, or 2) that he was miraculously transported to Jerusalem, but there was no Temple from which he could ascend, in which case, somebody lied.

Either way, the story is exposed as a total fiction, and Islam has no legit claim on Jerusalem. Apparently the inventors simply did not realize all this, and in aid of inventing a claim on Jerusalem or another elaborate miracle for Mo, put their foot in it by inventing a story that simply couldn't be true, even if a miracle had been involved.

I see. So Muslims "miracles" are all crazy stuff but the "miracles" of Judaism and Christianity are all verified to have actually happened? Is that correct?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:44 pm OK. So it is your contention that Isreal has offered NOT to settle the West Bank and has offered to allow Palestinians in the "occupied territories" full citizenship of Israel?

Not "my" contention. It's how it has been. You can look it up for yourself. That's why you have the sources.

Israel gave Gaza entirely over to the authority of Hamas and the Palestinians. They pulled all Jewish settlers out of the region. And what did the Gazans do? They spent all the international aid they got on buidling terrorist tunnels and rockets, and then charged into Israel to commit genocide.

So now what?