Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:44 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:06 pm I've pretty much surrendered to the fact that it is inevitable that...

..."something huge" ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ is going to happen to cure the "patient" (humanity) of its multi-religion schizophrenia, which seems to be the primary source of most of its problems.

That does seem to be stunting awareness and advancement. What do you think might be huge enough to break us free?

Well, I've considered several scenarios, here are a few...

• 1. The self-fulfilling prophecy of an all-out nuclear Armageddon will indeed come to pass due to the ever-intensifying situation stemming from Israel and its western allies violently expelling Palestinians from their land and homes.
  
  In which case, America, Russia, China, France, Great Britain, India, Pakistan, etc., will no doubt become involved with their nuclear arsenals, thus pretty much wiping humanity out of existence, which will then wipe the slate clean of the ridiculous religions that helped to bring about this horrific scenario.

Anyway, that would be one huge way of breaking us free.

• 2. A limited nuclear Armageddon will wipe out the general area of the Middle East of which Israel and Palestine will be at the center of the destruction. However, instead of Jesus "coming down from the sky" to stop the potential world-engulfing violence, as prophesied in the Bible,...
  
  ...an alternate way in which that prophecy could be fulfilled is perhaps via the intervention of benevolent aliens "coming down from the sky" to keep us from destroying ourselves.
  
  They, in turn, might introduce a more universal religion. Or, at the very least, put an end to the notion that we are alone in the universe and thus awaken humanity to more elevated visions of reality.

It's a stretch, but that would be another huge way of breaking us free.

• 3. Donald Trump will save the world with a promise to provide every human on earth with the opportunity to buy one of Trump's officially branded Golden Toilets to use as an altar by which to worship him more intimately (cost dependent upon the price of gold at time of purchase), and thus establish a new and unifying world religion called "TRUMPIANITY" that will "flush" all of your troubles away and render all of the other religions silly in comparison.
  
  Hey, don't knock it, because for people like Walker, we're almost there now.
  
  All that needs to be done is to get all of the great cathedrals, churches, mosques, synagogues, ashrams, and temples, etc. to lease the Trump name and place it in big golden letters above their entrances.

Now granted, that may not break us completely free from religion, but it would at least get rid of the trouble-causing clutter of having too many divisive ideologies that don't get along with each other.

• 4. Nothing can break us free, and this nightmare will linger on for generations to come.
  
  5. Let's hear some suggestions from you and the other members of the PN asylum.
  
  6.
  
  7.

_______

Janoah wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:44 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:18 am Israel cannot make it happen. Only HaShem can make it happen.

There is such a midrash, one very religious man escapes from a flood, climbs onto the roof and waits for God to save him...

Yes, I know that one. But I'm still not getting an answer to my question. And I know why.

There are two alternatives. Either HaShem miraculously spoke to Abraham and assigned to him and his offspring the Holy Land, or HaShem did not speak to Abraham at all, and somebody just made up the whole story -- in which case, Israel has no divine claim to the Land at all, and could as easily have settled in Uganda or Mexico, or any other place, without any particular loss.

But if HaShem miraculously assigned the Holy Land to Abraham, then what trouble have you and I in believing the plagues of Egypt, or the dividing of the Red Sea, or the fall of Jericho, or the Resurrection, or the return of Messiah to establish the reign of righteousness in Jerusalem? If HaShem is capable of any miracle at all, He is capable of miracles. But if HaShem is capable of no miracle, then what kind of "God" is He? How then would He be better than the dead gods of the nations, as spoken of in Psalm 115:

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.

Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of human hands.
They have mouths, but they cannot speak;
They have eyes, but they cannot see;
They have ears, but they cannot hear;
They have noses, but they cannot smell;
They have hands, but they cannot feel;
They have feet, but they cannot walk;
They cannot make a sound with their throat.
Those who make them will become like them,
Everyone who trusts in them.

Israel, trust in the Lord;
He is their help and their shield.

So it's all or nothing. Uniformitarianism supposes that it has to be nothing. But I don't think you want to side with Uniformitarianism on that, do you?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:44 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:06 pm "something huge" ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ is going to happen to cure the "patient" (humanity) of its multi-religion schizophrenia, which seems to be the primary source of most of its problems.

What do you think might be huge enough to break us free?

I'm guessing something like this...

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 am ...perhaps via the intervention of benevolent aliens "coming down from the sky" to keep us from destroying ourselves.

Or pissed-off aliens saying "Cut the crap already!"

Ancient cultures spoke of sky beings a lot, so I don't think it's that far-fetched.

They've probably avoided us because they see how insanely off-balance and volatile we are with our religions and politics.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 amput an end to the notion that we are alone in the universe and thus awaken humanity to more elevated visions of reality.

That could be a big step forward.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 amTrump's officially branded Golden Toilets to use as an altar by which to worship him more intimately

Walker would shine his daily.

Janoah wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:47 am Well, Christ was a Jew, he helped his own as best he could.

According to the Gospel narratives, his advent, the events that transpired, his position taken against the established state religion, his moral opposition to it, and then God’s condemnation of Israel (by words Jesus recited and Christian interpretations) which resulted in the last Exile, cannot easily be seen as “helping his own”.

All Orthodox Jewry hate Jesus Christ and visualize him in a hell-realm of boiling excrement for all eternity. When they hear his name they spit … He may have been — halachically — a Jew but his Jewish mother was a whore who sold herself to the Roman occupier. They don’t paint the prettiest picture obviously.

This is why — again from a narrative perspective — the Christian Zionist desire to “bless the Jews” to be blessed by God in turn, is ever-so-slightly absurd.

The way out? Rejection of the entire foundation of the Story. No “selection by God” and no divinely bequeathed land, no sacred mission by Jesus, no divinely administered punishment by Exile ….

“God” can only then be seen in a very different way, and what takes precedence is Man’s will and Man’s stories where he ascribes peculiar will to a god he himself blows life into …

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:20 am
I'm guessing something like this...

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 am ...perhaps via the intervention of benevolent aliens "coming down from the sky" to keep us from destroying ourselves.

Or pissed-off aliens saying "Cut the crap already!"

Ancient cultures spoke of sky beings a lot, so I don't think it's that far-fetched.

I guess I incline to cynicism.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:20 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:44 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:06 pm "something huge" ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ is going to happen to cure the "patient" (humanity) of its multi-religion schizophrenia, which seems to be the primary source of most of its problems.

What do you think might be huge enough to break us free?

I'm guessing something like this...

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 am ...perhaps via the intervention of benevolent aliens "coming down from the sky" to keep us from destroying ourselves.

Or pissed-off aliens saying "Cut the crap already!"

Ancient cultures spoke of sky beings a lot, so I don't think it's that far-fetched.

They've probably avoided us because they see how insanely off-balance and volatile we are with our religions and politics.

Or perhaps avoided us based on the fact that if many humans are violently intolerant of members of their own species simply because of the color of their skin, or because of minor variances of facial features,,..

...then just imagine how these same humans would react to radically different looking aliens from another world.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:20 am

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 amTrump's officially branded Golden Toilets to use as an altar by which to worship him more intimately

Walker would shine his daily.

Yes, and all worshipers will be expected to leave daily offerings at the Golden altar in recognition of just how much "TRUMPIANITY" will make the world a better place if only all humans would adopt the same attitude and values of its founder (PBUH).
_______

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:05 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:20 am Ancient cultures spoke of sky beings a lot, so I don't think it's that far-fetched.

I guess I incline to cynicism.

Because clearly you are entertained by it.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:19 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:20 am They've probably avoided us because they see how insanely off-balance and volatile we are with our religions and politics.

Or perhaps avoided us based on the fact that if many humans are violently intolerant of members of their own species simply because of the color of their skin, or because of minor variances of facial features,,..

...then just imagine how these same humans would react to radically different looking aliens from another world.

Yes, good point!

Of course, we might ALL be alien representatives of one sort or another in a co-mingling experiment.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 amTrump's officially branded Golden Toilets to use as an altar by which to worship him more intimately... /...and all worshipers will be expected to leave daily offerings at the Golden altar...

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:22 am - in which case, Israel has no divine claim to the Land at all,

Israel has the right because, and when closer to the truth.

Belief in the violation of the One Law of the World is false, and offering dividends for believing in a lie is like an intellectual bribe, which is not good enough for this.

Janoah wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:22 am - in which case, Israel has no divine claim to the Land at all,

Israel has the right because, and when closer to the truth.

No, that doesn't follow at all.

If there's no God, then truth is not to be privileged. And if God does not intervene in human affairs, then human beings have no "rights."

But you can see the problem, can't you? Either HaShem gave Israel to the Jews, or He did not. If He did not, then the Jews have no special claim at all. If He did, then they do.

There is no other possibility. It's simple logic.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:11 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:22 am - in which case, Israel has no divine claim to the Land at all,

Israel has the right because, and when closer to the truth.

No, that doesn't follow at all.

If there's no God, then truth is not to be privileged.

Without truth there is no true concept of God, let alone privilege.
I already told you this, there is no point in repeating it.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:05 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:20 am
I'm guessing something like this...

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:52 am ...perhaps via the intervention of benevolent aliens "coming down from the sky" to keep us from destroying ourselves.

Or pissed-off aliens saying "Cut the crap already!"

Ancient cultures spoke of sky beings a lot, so I don't think it's that far-fetched.

I guess I incline to cynicism.

Then we're all doomed and that's "all she wrote". If that is the case, then might makes right, and as long as the mighty use it, we will be right until we stop using it or can no longer use it. 'Victory' is not a moral endeavor.

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:06 am Without truth there is no true concept of God, let alone privilege.

You're missing the point.

No miracles means that God has not specially spoken concerning Israel, and has not intervened to do anything like save Israel or bestow a particular land on Israel. You insist that there can be no miracles: therefore, you insist there can be nothing special to Israel.

That's the logic you're backing right now. But I don't think that's the argument you want to back. So set me straight: can God do miracles, or is He incapable of that? And if He's incapable, in what sense is He God, and in what sense is Israel anything special?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 2:17 am

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:06 am Without truth there is no true concept of God, let alone privilege.

You insist that there can be no miracles:

I state once again that the natural Law is unchangeable.


***So set me straight: can God do miracles, or is He incapable of that? ***

After all, I have already said this, God is only actual, not potential, therefore He “can’t” do anything.


*** in what sense is He God***

God is the natural First Cause.



***, and in what sense is Israel anything special?***

Judaism maintains the principle
"and speaketh truth in his heart" (Psalm 15)
Everything good that the Jews had and still has is a consequence of this principle.
And the idea of the One, immaterial God is also a consequence of this principle.

Janoah wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:37 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 2:17 am

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:06 am Without truth there is no true concept of God, let alone privilege.

You insist that there can be no miracles:

I state once again that the natural Law is unchangeable.

Then I have to say that I don't think you know what a scientific "law" is. It's not some sort of rule that's universally binding...it's just a description of how physical things tend to operate provided nothing else intervenes. But when something else intervenes, the scientific law is not "violated" in some sense; rather, something more powerful overcomes it. The science remains fine.

And you can see this in science, all the time. Normally, gravity pulls things down -- unless they have wings, in which case, they soar up. Normally, salt water has a normal saturation point -- unless the water is heated, or stirred, or combined with other chemicals.... Scientific laws are only good so long as a more powerful "law" is not counteracting them, or something from outside the set of laws in play doesn't intervene; and if this happens routinely in normal life, why would we be surprised at that?

So the question is only this: is there an Entity powerful enough to intervene in scientific regularities (or "laws"), such as to prevent combustion (the burning bush), or to alter hydrodynamics (the Red Sea crossing), or overcome inertia (the walls of Jericho)...and if such an Entity exists, science is not defeated by a particular intervention at all. In fact, it's the existence of the normal rule or principle in science that informs us that such an event is a "miracle," by definition.

So you don't believe that HaShem is greater than particular scientific laws. That makes HIm less than other scientific laws, since one law can overcome another. That would mean your HaShem version is much less than the Almighty. In fact, it would mean it would not even be as strong as one of the scientific "laws" you suppose it created.

Not much of a God, that.

***So set me straight: can God do miracles, or is He incapable of that? ***

After all, I have already said this, God is only actual, not potential, therefore He “can’t” do anything.

That doesn't make sense. If God is actual, then doing things is exactly what He would be doing...performing acts.

*** in what sense is He God***

God is the natural First Cause.

Well, that's what I think. And I think the reasons for believing it are extremely good.

But you apparently don't actually think that. In fact, you stumble at the first verse of Torah, Genesis 1:1. You would have to say that in the beginning, God didn't "make" anything. Remember? You said He can't do anything.

***, and in what sense is Israel anything special?***
Judaism maintains the principle
"and speaketh truth in his heart" (Psalm 15)

You're not even quoting a full sentence. How is anybody supposed to understand such an answer?

I certainly can't make sense of what you mean. Can you clear that up?

But again: why is anybody obligated to care what "Judaism maintains," if Judaism itself is not supported by HaShem? But if it's supported by HaShem, then that's a miracle, and Uniformitarianism isn't true.

So again, Janoah, I think you have to pick your horse and ride it, so to speak. You can't say both that HaShem is incapable of acting in the material world, and yet try to say that Judaism is specially deserving of credence, or that Israel belongs to the Hebrew descendents of Abraham, or that Jerusalem is sacred.

So what do you really believe? It can't be both of the things you're now saying you believe.