Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:42 pm Conversation isn't a sort of mandated process where one is morally obligated to speak to every point a person makes

Honest discussion is where you don't leave out words to change context when responding to what someone says.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:52 pm Gold is a commodity like anything else. Open up a new gold mine and you have an immediate problem with inflation, were you stupid enough to have a gold standard.
There are good reasons why the gold standard was abandoned.
The problem with money is that people confuse with with wealth - it is no such thing. It is a fiat token of exchange a tautological promise signifying much but representing nothing.

I have a friend who has bought a powerful computer to "mine" cryto currencies. In the last year he has grown a stake of $1000 to £67,000. After subtracting his costs of the computer and the electricity it consumes.

I asked him, on Facebook, who worked for that money? After a long pause he said the Miner woked hard.
My view is that his computer is a paracite whose only achivement in the world is the contribution it has made to burn electricity contributing to climate change.

With that machine, real value, wealth has been taken from people who have worked to earn a living. He pretends he has created money and thinks himself a great entrepreneur in actuality he is just a paracite on the wealth creation of others.

A perfect economic system nor monetary system can be put in place, so you come up with the best one you can considering all the evil actors out there. This means using available resources and then having the best system of checks and balances possible. The last 50-100 years has seen a severe breakdown in the later so corruption throughout the economic system [as a whole] is everywhere.

Capitalism isn't perfect but it works pretty darn well compared to anything else. Again, the key is keeping the wolves at bay. The monetary system is complex [as is the system of credit], but when properly regulated delivered incredible growth globally. The system now is replete with corruption that needs to be rooted-out.

Money serves many purposes and functions. As a medium of exchange, it works pretty darn well. FIAT money always fails, therefore you must have what I refer to as "real" money, that is, something that people cannot counterfeit [including central banks]. The history of money has not been wonderful as human beings simply cannot resist trying to get something for nothing, but with today's technology, something considerable better than what is going on can happen [nationally]. Allow the globalists to introduce a global currency and we are all in BIG trouble [all except the elite].

I agree that perhaps the biggest problem people have faced over the centuries is folks having their labor-value stolen by those who control the economic system. Man working towards a method that would compensate a worker for the amount of labor-value s/he produces [less overhead] should be a long-range goal of the species. Perhaps a couple of centuries down the road.

Sculptor, if you cannot respond in a reasonable manner, please allow somebody else to. Thanks...

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm Capitalism isn't perfect but it works pretty darn well compared to anything else. Again, the key is keeping the wolves at bay. The monetary system is complex [as is the system of credit], but when properly regulated delivered incredible growth globally.

Take a bow. The Chinese model created more growth and pulled more people out of poverty in 50 years than Capitalism did in 200.

Capitalists have to take some moral or qualitative high ground nowadays, because the factual/quantitative argument isn't in their favor anymore.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:53 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm Capitalism isn't perfect but it works pretty darn well compared to anything else. Again, the key is keeping the wolves at bay. The monetary system is complex [as is the system of credit], but when properly regulated delivered incredible growth globally.

Take a bow. The Chinese model created more growth and pulled more people out of poverty in 50 years than Capitalism did in 200.

Capitalists have to take some moral or qualitative high ground nowadays, because the factual/quantitative argument isn't in their favor anymore.

The Chinese model is called capitalism.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:05 pm Their intention to prolong covid for a great-reset which is a code for a world government... that's what you think they're doing isn't it?

"What I think?" No, it's what THEY think they're going to do that matters.

Read the book. It's so much more informative than just colouring them.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:21 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:42 pm Conversation isn't a sort of mandated process where one is morally obligated to speak to every point a person makes

Honest discussion is where you don't leave out words to change context when responding to what someone says.

Then you should stop.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:04 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:05 pm Their intention to prolong covid for a great-reset which is a code for a world government... that's what you think they're doing isn't it?

"What I think?" No, it's what THEY think they're going to do that matters.

Read the book. It's so much more informative than just colouring them.

Did I summarise inaccurately? Are the Davos group not why you have been riffing about world governments recently? You told us about them extending the covid thing, I doubt very highly that they wrote a book saying they would do that.

You've done a little bit of reading between the lines haven't you?

age: Your framework up-thread FAILS from START to FINISH.

me: Please explain how it fails from start to finish.

(your list follows with my responses interspersed)

By the fact that you:
1. Could NOT legitimately provide an individual human being NOR body who could arbitrate over this.

To review: this...

A man belongs to himself.

A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

A man's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

...is my framework. The only question with the first two items is: are they true? Does a man belong to himself? Are a man's life, liberty, and property his? I believe these are facts about man. My reasoning is in the first post of this thread...
viewtopic.php?p=452267#p452267

The third item does properly fall within the sphere of arbitration. Determining when a man has murdered or self-defended, when he's stolen or welched on a contract, etc. can and should be arbitrated. We have judges and juries for exactly that purpose.


2. Because you CONTRADICT your OWN made up framework through and by of your own continual behaviors.

Can you cite an example of where I violate the spirit or letter of the framework above? Or perhaps you're talkin' about people in general violating the framework. Please clarify.

And: the framework is not made up, not solely my construct. Bastiat and Locke, naming just two, said the same things. Hell, in this forum, I posted Bastiat's work The Law, wherein he makes his case for man's ownness and for the legitmacy of life, liberty, and property. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32456


3. Because EVERY one has their OWN definition of 'just cause'.

Indeed. Even though the third item, when unpacked, is unambiguous, there would still need for impartial and dispassionate arbitration (judges and juries).


4. Because one can NEVER fully KNOW whether another is doing something knowingly nor willingly.

Sure you can. Generally, you can ask someone and they'll tell you, in effect, I did so & so cuz I wanted to or I did so & so becuz I was forced to. Sometimes someone might say I don't know why I did so & so. Evidence, what was actually done and how, can help determine motive in such cases.


5.Because NO one ACTUALLY "owns" "property".

I provide a product for my customers, meeting the mutually agreed upon requirements of our contract. They pay the agreed upon fee. I take that money and, for example, buy a car from the owner. The owner accepts my money and signs over ownership of the car to me. How am I not the owner of the car? How is the car not my property?

More basic: How can I not belong to me? I am my substance. The flesh, bone, brain, muscle, and the soul that animates that substance is me. How can I not be my first, best property?


6. And, because of the ABSURD notion that a human being has the "right" to forfeit or deprive another human being of life, liberty, or "property" just because they think that they have a "right" to.

But I don't have the right to deprive another of life, liberty, or property, (without just cause) and there's a consequence if I do. You need to read the framework again.


7. If this framework was followed or adhered to, then you ALL, in the days when this is being written, would have already been forfeited in part or in whole of your own life, liberty, AND "property".

No, if this framework were followed (each man recognizing that all other men belong to themselves in exactly the same way as he belongs to himself) then the world would be a better place.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:04 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:05 pm Their intention to prolong covid for a great-reset which is a code for a world government... that's what you think they're doing isn't it?

"What I think?" No, it's what THEY think they're going to do that matters.

Read the book. It's so much more informative than just colouring them.

Did I summarise inaccurately?

Read the book. Then I won't have to tell you.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:42 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:53 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm Capitalism isn't perfect but it works pretty darn well compared to anything else. Again, the key is keeping the wolves at bay. The monetary system is complex [as is the system of credit], but when properly regulated delivered incredible growth globally.

Take a bow. The Chinese model created more growth and pulled more people out of poverty in 50 years than Capitalism did in 200.

Capitalists have to take some moral or qualitative high ground nowadays, because the factual/quantitative argument isn't in their favor anymore.

The Chinese model is called capitalism.

Actually, the Chinese model is called slavery.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:52 pm Gold is a commodity like anything else. Open up a new gold mine and you have an immediate problem with inflation, were you stupid enough to have a gold standard.
There are good reasons why the gold standard was abandoned.
The problem with money is that people confuse with with wealth - it is no such thing. It is a fiat token of exchange a tautological promise signifying much but representing nothing.

I have a friend who has bought a powerful computer to "mine" cryto currencies. In the last year he has grown a stake of $1000 to £67,000. After subtracting his costs of the computer and the electricity it consumes.

I asked him, on Facebook, who worked for that money? After a long pause he said the Miner woked hard.
My view is that his computer is a paracite whose only achivement in the world is the contribution it has made to burn electricity contributing to climate change.

With that machine, real value, wealth has been taken from people who have worked to earn a living. He pretends he has created money and thinks himself a great entrepreneur in actuality he is just a paracite on the wealth creation of others.

A perfect economic system nor monetary system can be put in place, so you come up with the best one you can considering all the evil actors out there. This means using available resources and then having the best system of checks and balances possible. The last 50-100 years has seen a severe breakdown in the later so corruption throughout the economic system [as a whole] is everywhere.

Capitalism isn't perfect but it works pretty darn well compared to anything else. Again, the key is keeping the wolves at bay. The monetary system is complex [as is the system of credit], but when properly regulated delivered incredible growth globally. The system now is replete with corruption that needs to be rooted-out.

Money serves many purposes and functions. As a medium of exchange, it works pretty darn well. FIAT money always fails, therefore you must have what I refer to as "real" money, that is, something that people cannot counterfeit [including central banks]. The history of money has not been wonderful as human beings simply cannot resist trying to get something for nothing, but with today's technology, something considerable better than what is going on can happen [nationally]. Allow the globalists to introduce a global currency and we are all in BIG trouble [all except the elite].

I agree that perhaps the biggest problem people have faced over the centuries is folks having their labor-value stolen by those who control the economic system. Man working towards a method that would compensate a worker for the amount of labor-value s/he produces [less overhead] should be a long-range goal of the species. Perhaps a couple of centuries down the road.

Sculptor, if you cannot respond in a reasonable manner, please allow somebody else to. Thanks...

If you want to be taken seriously then say something worthwhile.
THis post was not directed at you and you were under no obligation to answer it.
So get off your high horse.

Only fiat money can ever make sense.
It is absolutely stupid to peg money to a standard; gold, petrol, silver Conche shells- its mindless.

Why would you ever want to prostitute your economy by making it dependant on resources over which you have zero control?
You are shockingly naive when it comes to economics. No one with any sense is making a claim for the return if the gold standard except owners of gold mines.
I am flabbergased that this line of argument has survived into the 21st C.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:41 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:04 pm
"What I think?" No, it's what THEY think they're going to do that matters.

Read the book. It's so much more informative than just colouring them.

Did I summarise inaccurately?

Read the book. Then I won't have to tell you.

If I was misrepresenting you, you would be able to just say that no, you don't believe the Davos dudes are trying to create some world government.

I am not interested in reading your conspiracy theorist tomes, any more than I am going to read some detailed pseudo forensic explanation of how the moon landings were faked or the Earth is shaped like a donut. Even I have better uses for my time than sheer stupidity.

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm [FIAT money always fails

That's yet another blanket statement you've made that doesn't look very sustainable. Will you do anything to justify any of them at any point?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pmtherefore you must have what I refer to as "real" money, that is, something that people cannot counterfeit [including central banks].

So ... bitcoin is "real" money then?

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm I agree that perhaps the biggest problem people have faced over the centuries is folks having their labor-value stolen by those who control the economic system. Man working towards a method that would compensate a worker for the amount of labor-value s/he produces [less overhead] should be a long-range goal of the species. Perhaps a couple of centuries down the road.

That's the Labour Theory of Value, you complete commie
After everything you've written, now you are chanelling Karl Marx.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:10 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:41 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:20 pm
Did I summarise inaccurately?

Read the book. Then I won't have to tell you.

I am not interested in reading your conspiracy theorist tomes,

Ha!

It's THEIR book. It has nothing to do with me. If you knew the very first thing about the Davos Group, you'd know that it's THEIR manifesto!

Classic. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Classic.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:42 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:10 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:41 pm
Read the book. Then I won't have to tell you.

I am not interested in reading your conspiracy theorist tomes,

Ha!

It's THEIR book. It has nothing to do with me. If you knew the very first thing about the Davos Group, you'd know that it's THEIR manifesto!

Classic. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Classic.

And their manifesto says they will launch a world government does it?