Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:32 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:27 pm The only truth is there isn't any truth.

That's obviously self-contradictory.

If it's true, that "there isn't any truth," then that claim can't possibly be true either...which means it's false. But if it's false, then it's false again.

So either way, that claim is false. There is no other possibility.

No one to claim truth, all claimed truths are false.

Just Keep studying nonduality, it will click eventually for you.

Jesus Christ the man died so that you wouldn't have to. He had to go to make room for you, so that you could live, as there simply wasn't enough room for the two of us. Contradictory little moles aren't we.

Just who do you think is alive and dead here..? ..oh I know, y(our beloved belief

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:05 pm ...all claimed truths are false.

Then THAT statement must be false...because it's a "claim."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:05 pm ...all claimed truths are false.

Then THAT statement must be false...because it's a "claim."

Yes, that statement is false, because all 'truth claims' are false. The claim 'I know the truth' is false, simply because in knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality. So in knowledge, there is no truth, except the false belief there is. In reality, there is only this immediate mysterious 'Not-knowing Knowing' which cannot claim it knows, and paradoxically and apparently, appears to do the absolute opposite. So in essence, a truth claim is only an appearance, that no-thing is claiming. A seeming paradox only within the illusory dream of separation, which is an artificial mental constructual conceptual overlay by association of opposites within the unknowable.

Truth of reality and being, simply cannot be known conceptually, except in this conception, as a fictional belief, aka the event horizon. There is no horizon, and Beyond the non-existence of the illusory event horizon lies another dilemma, known as a black hole. This is a cold hard fact that the mind refuses to accept.

Now, the mind can make up as many theories and stories about what can never be known until the cows come home, but the mind will never know reality directly because there is no mind. There is here, only illusions delusions illusion.



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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:20 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:05 pm ...all claimed truths are false.

Then THAT statement must be false...because it's a "claim."

Yes, that statement is false, because all 'truth claims' are false.

Then it' is not true that "all claimed truths are false." It's a falsehood, as you say. So that entails that some claims are true, and the statement itself is nothing but a deception. QED.

You see, your claim is going to turn out to be false, no matter which way you turn. You can be 100% certain, therefore, that it is not true to say that "all truth claims are false." It's a statement as absurd and incoherent as "all bachelors are married" and "all circles are square."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:20 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:20 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:39 pm
Then THAT statement must be false...because it's a "claim."

Yes, that statement is false, because all 'truth claims' are false.

Then it' is not true that "all claimed truths are false." It's a falsehood, as you say. So that entails that some claims are true, and the statement itself is nothing but a deception. QED.

You see, your claim is going to turn out to be false, no matter which way you turn. You can be 100% certain, therefore, that it is not true to say that "all truth claims are false." It's a statement as absurd and incoherent as "all bachelors are married" and "all circles are square."

It's true that all 'truth claims' are false.

"I live, yet not I, but Christ - the eternal Logos - liveth in me. " (Gal 2:20).

Truth does not claim. Truth is an eternal and unchanging truth.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:41 pm It's true that all 'truth claims' are false.

It cannot be. There is 0% chance of that being true, since it's a truth claim itself.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:49 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:41 pm It's true that all 'truth claims' are false.

It cannot be. There is 0% chance of that being true, since it's a truth claim itself.

Yes it can be. It's a false truth claim.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:49 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:41 pm It's true that all 'truth claims' are false.

It cannot be. There is 0% chance of that being true, since it's a truth claim itself.

Yes it can be. It's a false truth claim.

Is this the old, "incoherence is evidence of profundity" thing?

Well, it's not. It's just evidence of incoherence. If the claim "all truth claims are false" is true, then it's false, which means it's not true, by definition. There are no alternatives, rationally speaking.

But of course, irrationality is always an option...just not a good one.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:02 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:49 pm
It cannot be. There is 0% chance of that being true, since it's a truth claim itself.

Yes it can be. It's a false truth claim.

Is this the old, "incoherence is evidence of profundity" thing?

Well, it's not. It's just evidence of incoherence. If the claim "all truth claims are false" is true, then it's false, which means it's not true, by definition. There are no alternatives, rationally speaking.

But of course, irrationality is always an option...just not a good one.

Well if indeed there was such a thing as a 'truth claimer' in reality, then it would indeed be a rational and coherent knowledge to the believed 'truth claimer'

Beliefs can be either true or false and yet neither. Pretend truths will always be irrational and incoherent, only appearing albeit falsely as rational and coherent.

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There simply is no ''truth claimer'' aka a knower. Here, there only appears to be a 'truth claimer'

In the same way, we could say that a mirage of an oasis in the desert exists when it is observed, or we could say that it does not exist. It only becomes a problem when it is not recognised for what it truly is and one expects to find water there, when in truth it's not really there. What is only thought to exist, really does not.

Knowing is not known by a 'someone' aka a 'truth claimer' ...there is only knowing, you are that knowing, that cannot be known or claimed.

There is a belief in the lie, in the false as being true. This is the only truth, the eternal unchanging truth.

No one ever said reality had to be rational and coherent, that's just another belief, a lie that is true.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:23 pm Beliefs can be either true or false and yet neither.

Actually, they can't.

Examine it, and I think you'll find that true and false are like the on and off of a light switch: there is no middle position on the "switch." To be even a little bit false is to be false in summary. And something genuinely and purely true is genuinely and purely true. You can sometimes separate the elements of a single (deceptive) claim into their true and false elements, but you can't make the elements both-true-and-false.

Pretend truths will always be irrational and incoherent, only appearing albeit falsely as rational and coherent.

The fundamental question between you and me has always been, "What is truth," I think. And truth entails correspondence to reality. Since you and I have different views of what reality is like, we don't agree about what statements about it reflect the truth about it either.

But truth as a concept does not vary with worldview. Even when you say to me, or I say to you, "That's not true," we both are speaking of the issue of whether or not the claim corresponds to the facts given us in the world. That much, we have in common. And if anyone departs from that sort of understanding of "truth," then they've simply lost the concept entirely.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:59 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:23 pm Beliefs can be either true or false and yet neither.

Actually, they can't.

Examine it, and I think you'll find that true and false are like the on and off of a light switch: there is no middle position on the "switch." To be even a little bit false is to be false in summary. And something genuinely and purely true is genuinely and purely true. You can sometimes separate the elements of a single (deceptive) claim into their true and false elements, but you can't make the elements both-true-and-false.

Pretend truths will always be irrational and incoherent, only appearing albeit falsely as rational and coherent.

The fundamental question between you and me has always been, "What is truth," I think. And truth entails correspondence to reality. Since you and I have different views of what reality is like, we don't agree about what statements about it reflect the truth about it either.

But truth as a concept does not vary with worldview. Even when you say to me, or I say to you, "That's not true," we both are speaking of the issue of whether or not the claim corresponds to the facts given us in the world. That much, we have in common. And if anyone departs from that sort of understanding of "truth," then they've simply lost the concept entirely.

It's ok mannie, you do not have to rationalize my irrationality for me. I never pretend to know anything here, I know I don't know.

But thank God we can count on Jesus to rationalize every irrational thought.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm It's ok mannie, you do not have to rationalize my irrationality for me.

I wasn't. I was pointing out that irrationality is never anything more than irrational.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:53 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm It's ok mannie, you do not have to rationalize my irrationality for me.

I wasn't. I was pointing out that irrationality is never anything more than irrational.

It's ok mannie, this is common knowledge mannie.

It's a bit like an orange is never anything more than a coloured fruit.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:29 pm It's a bit like an orange is never anything more than a coloured fruit.

If it's so automatic, then why would people ever resist the obvious, logical conclusion that the claim "all truth claims are false" is simply absurd? But it's clearly not automatic, because when faced with its inescapability, many people "escape" into illogic. They say, "Well, the claims of logic don't work...they're "patriarchal,"" or "Eurocentric," or some other nonsense pejorative term.

To do that is not a real "escape," though, far less an enlightenment; it's a kind of informal lobotomy. And ironically, they do it by appealing to things like truth and reality: they say, "Well, this is the true way of things." ...which again, makes absolutely no sense at all.