Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:13 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:24 pm
I am talking about the process of nothing to physical. When the universe started to exist.

WHY are 'you' under the ASSUMPTION that the Universe "started to exist"?

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:24 pm
I am talking about the beginning of the universe.

Are you able to explain how YOUR ASSUMPTION about some "beginning of the Universe" could logically and empirically even be possible?

If yes, then will you?

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:24 pm And you cannot reach from eternal past to now as you cannot reach from now to eternal future.

You are ABSOLUTELY FREE to tell 'us' what 'you' are capable of and incapable of.
You, however, are NOT YET actually able to, correctly, tell 'us' what 'I' am capable of and incapable of. That is; until 'you' can correctly answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?'
So, until then, 'I' respectively request that 'you' please refrain from telling 'us' what 'I' cannot reach here.

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:24 pm Infinite in principle, by definition, is unreachable.

By who, or in what dictionary, is 'infinite' defined and thus is necessitated that 'infinite' is, so called, "unreachable"?

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:24 pm It is like saying that unreachable is reachable.

ONLY IF, and when, someone defines some 'thing' as being unreachable.

And, IF ANY one does, then I question them about what ACTUAL PROOF do they have for this CLAIM of theirs.

My friend, the situation is simple since there are only two cases: 1) What you call eternal past is reachable (so it was at finite past), and 2) It is unreachable (it was in infinite past).

LOOK, this is even SIMPLER. That is; 'you' BELIEVE, ("without ANY shadow of a doubt", as some say), that infinity is IMPOSSIBLE to reach. Therefore, you are NOT OPEN to absolutely ANY thing else. And, it REALLY is just this SIMPLE.

What I SAY IS: eternity is REACHABLE. This is because I ALREADY KNOW how to SEE, and thus REACH 'It'.

What you call an "eternal past, which is reachable", is a "finite past" is YOUR CHOICE. But that choice of YOURS has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I am ACTUALLY talking about and SAYING.

If you EVER decided to ask 'me' for CLARIFICATION about what I am ACTUALLY SAYING and MEANING instead of just 'trying to' LOOK AT 'it' from YOUR PERSPECTIVE and ALREADY gained BELIEFS, then you just MIGHT come to understand some 'thing' other than YOUR OWN BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Please REFRAIN from TELLING 'me' about what I have ALREADY done and still do is NOT what I say it is.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm There was a beginning if it is reachable. You cannot reach unreachable in the second case therefore you cannot come from the eternal past to now.

You are SO BLINDED by your OWN BELIEFS you can NOT even SEE the OBVIOUS fallacies and faults you are making here.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm Therefore, the second case is not valid. The only case which is left is the first one. Therefore, there was a beginning.

AND LOL.

Okay, to 'you', there was 'A BEGINNING' to ABSOLUTELY Everything.

Now, if you want to be taken SERIOUSLY, then all you have to do is PROVE this.

Just let 'us' know when you would like to 'begin', okay?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:23 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:16 pm Why should I have debt in sin? I haven't chosen to come to this world. My parents decided.

You surely didn't chose the day of your birth, that's true. But who said you have any blame for your birth?

It's your own nature and choices that are at issue here. Are you so sure of your own previous path of life that you can see no evidence that you have chosen ways that are out of harmony with a righteous God? I should think an honest evaluation by any of us would yield a firm conclusion on that pretty quickly.

But the offer of changing that is on the table.

I mean, why I should suffer in this world.

'you', so called, "should" not suffer in this 'world'. But, as an adult, if you are, what is called, "suffering", then that is of your OWN choice ALONE.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I should have given the choices that Adam and Eve had.

And what were they EXACTLY?

And when and IF you answer that, then I will ask you the next OPEN CLARIFYING QUESTION.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I am in this fallen world, trapped, give evil and good nature.

LOL 'you', as the adult, are NOT 'trapped'. In fact, 'you', as the adult, are the CAUSE OF this 'fallen world'.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I do good sometimes.

Just like EVERY other adult human being.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm Sometimes I cannot avoid doing evil.

AND, just like EVERY other adult human being you make up and tell LIES, just like 'you' are here in an 'attempt' to "justify" your WRONG and/or BAD behaviors.

'you', and EVERY other adult human being CAN avoid doing wrong AND bad 'things'. But, 'you' just 'have to' SERIOUSLY Want to.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I am rewarded by the first one and punished for the second one.

And, only REALLY be concerned about 'you' ONLY is ANOTHER Truly adult human being WRONG behavior.

Maybe if you just started DOING for "others" instead of for 'you', and "yourself" ONLY, then 'you' would be REWARDED in the True way that was intended and the way that you Truly would like to be and desire to be REWARDED.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm And if I die after sinning before confessing, then my place would be in eternal Hell.

And here is ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of just how TWISTED and DISTORTED human beings thinking and viewing was, back in the days of when this was being written.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:12 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:39 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pm
Because I am claiming that there are only three sorts of acts.

So what?

AGAIN, What does that have to do with what I was ACTUALLY SAYING?

You criticized the definition of creation.

Did I?

Where AND when?

A link would be nice but a copy and paste would suffice.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:12 pm I declare that there are three types of acts one of the creation which means to bring something out of nothing.

You can DECLARE till the day you die.
But, if you do NOT provide,
Thee ACTUAL PROOF,
Then, you are just being ALOOF.

Declare that something out of nothing is what happened. I REALLY just do NOT CARE.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:12 pm This however applies to the beginning of the universe. It could apply to now too if God for example is constantly creating each stage of the universe.

I AGAIN do NOT CARE.

And I will ask this AGAIN:

What does ANY of this got to do with what I was ACTUALLY SAYING?

I will just WAIT to SEE where I have ACTUALLY, supposedly, criticized THEE definition of 'creation'.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:12 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:39 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pm I defined them too.

You defined 'what' as well?

I defined three kinds of acts.

SO WHAT? (oh, and by the way, I was ACTUALLY yelling this time when I asked this).

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:12 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:39 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 pm If there is the fourth one, then you should know it. What is it?

If there is a fourth one, 'should' 'you' also know it, or just 'me'?

What that fourth one is I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA. AND, because IF there is a fourth one or NOT has ABSOLUTELY NO ACTUAL BEARING on the ACTUAL question/s I have posed to 'you' AT ALL I REALLY do NOT care either.

If you are REALLY interested in SEEING what I was ACTUALLY asking you and talking about 'it', then it is there in my previous posts to you. Otherwise, some readers are just SEEING what you are doing here as being just pure DETRACTION. And, this might be because you are NOT able to explain how YOUR ASSUMPTION could even possibly be true.

So you agree with the fact that there are three kinds of acts, namely, creation, annihilation, and change.

I may or may NOT.

I am still TRYING TO work out what ANY of this has to do with what I have ACTUALLY BEEN SAYING and ASKING.

Also, and by the way, if what you say here is a 'fact' as you propose it is, then I could NOT logically and reasonably DISAGREE, OBVIOUSLY.

Furthermore, there is also the kind of act, namely; monkeying around, clowning around, distraction, deflection, and detracting, as well as many other 'kinds of acts'.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I mean, why I should suffer in this world.

If you believed in an objective reality, B., I'd think that was a very good question, and I'd give you an answer. But I don't even understand how somebody who believes "all is mind" can ask the question. If you don't believe in reality being real, then you're not suffering. Nothing is happening to you at all...it's a trick your "mind" is playing on you.

But maybe you don't really believe "all is mind." Maybe that's just an easy way of avoiding the question altogether. And maybe the question is really legitimate and needs to be asked.

Where do you stand on that? Is "all mind," or is there a reality in which you genuinely suffer? Can you help me understand your position?

I should have given the choices that Adam and Eve had.

We actually have even better choices, B.

I am in this fallen world, trapped, give evil and good nature. I do good sometimes. Sometimes I cannot avoid doing evil. I am rewarded by the first one and punished for the second one.

Well, there are no rewards and punishments being meted out right now, B. Good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good ones; and there's no pattern in it, other than the patterns that maybe follow from natural consequences.

But there is NO such thing as "bad people" NOR "good people". Unless of course, you are referring to ALL children as obviously they are ALL ONLY "good", as they can NOT do WRONG. And/or are referring to the "good and bad people" as ALL adults obviously do "good" and "bad" things?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm But God is clear: the time for judgment is not now.

If God is, supposedly, clear, to 'you', about the time of judgment is not 'now', then has God also provided ANY indication, to 'you', WHEN the actual time of judgment will be?

If yes, then WHEN?

But if no, then WHY do you think that is the case?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm If you're suffering, it's not that God hates you. The man hanging on a cross should send that message to you if nothing does: suffering does not mean God hates you. It only means you're living in a fallen world, as you say.

That is in the adult human being self-created 'world'.

So, if 'you', adult human beings, call 'this world', which is ACTUALLY 'you' who is creating this "fallen world", then I suggest that 'you' do something about it, instead of whinging, complaining, or blaming.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm

And if I die after sinning before confessing, then my place would be in eternal Hell.

In a way, it's worse than that. Confession is actually worthless if it's all by itself. What good does it do if I steal your car, and then confess it? Then, all I've done is admitted to a crime...I haven't paid any restitution to you, nor even given back the car.

But in a way, the news is better: confess, change your mind, and appeal to God for salvation, and all is forgiven...

LOL A "hell" of a LOT of confessing, appealing, and forgiving has been going on for thousands of years now, but to absolutely NO avail at all. As 'this' "fallen world" just keeps falling and falling further down the spiral towards a complete human being demise.

Just maybe a bit of ACTUALLY RESPONSIBILITY was ACCEPTED and TAKEN from those who ones who REALLY and Truly are the ACTUAL RESPONSIBLE ones what are ACTUALLY creating "this fallen world" might be the key and success to ALL of their hopes, dreams, and wishes here.

ALL of this WAITING and PRAYING for some 'thing' else to come and FIX all of this self-created mess up seems to be Truly fruitless exercise.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm and not merely overlooked or ignored, but actually judicially wiped out, so that you are completely free of guilt. As Jesus Himself promised,

When what has ACTUALLY CAUSED ALL of 'you', adult human beings, to do the WRONG and BAD things that you ALL do, then, and ONLY THEN, 'guilt' can be and will be removed once and for ALL, but until the guilt you feel or are so desperately 'trying to' hide and suppress will REMAIN with 'you'

Until 'you', adult human beings, ACCEPT and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for 'this fallen world', which you are ALL creating, then that GUILT will REMAIN, and WILL REMAIN RIGHTLY SO.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

Which can ALL be EXPLAINED in VERY SIMPLY and VERY EASILY, logically and empirically proven, terms.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm Notice the verb tenses? He "has" eternal life (already, now) and "does" (not ever fall under judgment), but "has" (already, now) passed out of death into life. That's what salvation means.

But, 'you', people, want to KNOW, EXACTLY, HOW to obtain this 'salvation'. So, are 'you' able to EXPLAIN HOW?

If yes, then please do. People have been WAITING SO LONG for someone like 'you'.

But, if no, then WHY NOT?

What is 'it', EXACTLY, which 'you' ALSO are MISSING?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I mean, why I should suffer in this world.

If you believed in an objective reality, B., I'd think that was a very good question, and I'd give you an answer. But I don't even understand how somebody who believes "all is mind" can ask the question. If you don't believe in reality being real, then you're not suffering. Nothing is happening to you at all...it's a trick your "mind" is playing on you.

But maybe you don't really believe "all is mind." Maybe that's just an easy way of avoiding the question altogether. And maybe the question is really legitimate and needs to be asked.

Where do you stand on that? Is "all mind," or is there a reality in which you genuinely suffer? Can you help me understand your position?

I should have given the choices that Adam and Eve had.

We actually have even better choices, B.

I am in this fallen world, trapped, give evil and good nature. I do good sometimes. Sometimes I cannot avoid doing evil. I am rewarded by the first one and punished for the second one.

Well, there are no rewards and punishments being meted out right now, B. Good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good ones; and there's no pattern in it, other than the patterns that maybe follow from natural consequences. But God is clear: the time for judgment is not now. If you're suffering, it's not that God hates you. The man hanging on a cross should send that message to you if nothing does: suffering does not mean God hates you. It only means you're living in a fallen world, as you say.

And if I die after sinning before confessing, then my place would be in eternal Hell.

In a way, it's worse than that. Confession is actually worthless if it's all by itself. What good does it do if I steal your car, and then confess it? Then, all I've done is admitted to a crime...I haven't paid any restitution to you, nor even given back the car.

But in a way, the news is better: confess, change your mind, and appeal to God for salvation, and all is forgiven...and not merely overlooked or ignored, but actually judicially wiped out, so that you are completely free of guilt. As Jesus Himself promised,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

Notice the verb tenses? He "has" eternal life (already, now) and "does" (not ever fall under judgment), but "has" (already, now) passed out of death into life. That's what salvation means.

We are discussing your point of view now. In my point of view, we forget in order to fall into the fallen world. Therefore, every experience we get is unconditional. We will be exposed to all sorts of experiences. You will know the absolute truth then. Everything becomes commonsense after a while. You won't enjoy what you get. More life is like Hell. So, you forget in order to fall into this fallen world. So your story ends and then starts over. So Cycle repeats.

I my point of view mind is fundamental. It cannot be created or destroyed. It experiences and causes.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:52 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:13 pm

WHY are 'you' under the ASSUMPTION that the Universe "started to exist"?



Are you able to explain how YOUR ASSUMPTION about some "beginning of the Universe" could logically and empirically even be possible?

If yes, then will you?



You are ABSOLUTELY FREE to tell 'us' what 'you' are capable of and incapable of.
You, however, are NOT YET actually able to, correctly, tell 'us' what 'I' am capable of and incapable of. That is; until 'you' can correctly answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?'
So, until then, 'I' respectively request that 'you' please refrain from telling 'us' what 'I' cannot reach here.



By who, or in what dictionary, is 'infinite' defined and thus is necessitated that 'infinite' is, so called, "unreachable"?



ONLY IF, and when, someone defines some 'thing' as being unreachable.

And, IF ANY one does, then I question them about what ACTUAL PROOF do they have for this CLAIM of theirs.

My friend, the situation is simple since there are only two cases: 1) What you call eternal past is reachable (so it was at finite past), and 2) It is unreachable (it was in infinite past).

LOOK, this is even SIMPLER. That is; 'you' BELIEVE, ("without ANY shadow of a doubt", as some say), that infinity is IMPOSSIBLE to reach. Therefore, you are NOT OPEN to absolutely ANY thing else. And, it REALLY is just this SIMPLE.

What I SAY IS: eternity is REACHABLE. This is because I ALREADY KNOW how to SEE, and thus REACH 'It'.

What you call an "eternal past, which is reachable", is a "finite past" is YOUR CHOICE. But that choice of YOURS has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I am ACTUALLY talking about and SAYING.

If you EVER decided to ask 'me' for CLARIFICATION about what I am ACTUALLY SAYING and MEANING instead of just 'trying to' LOOK AT 'it' from YOUR PERSPECTIVE and ALREADY gained BELIEFS, then you just MIGHT come to understand some 'thing' other than YOUR OWN BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Please REFRAIN from TELLING 'me' about what I have ALREADY done and still do is NOT what I say it is.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm There was a beginning if it is reachable. You cannot reach unreachable in the second case therefore you cannot come from the eternal past to now.

You are SO BLINDED by your OWN BELIEFS you can NOT even SEE the OBVIOUS fallacies and faults you are making here.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm Therefore, the second case is not valid. The only case which is left is the first one. Therefore, there was a beginning.

AND LOL.

Okay, to 'you', there was 'A BEGINNING' to ABSOLUTELY Everything.

Now, if you want to be taken SERIOUSLY, then all you have to do is PROVE this.

Just let 'us' know when you would like to 'begin', okay?

Do you understand my argument? It seems that you don't.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:41 pm

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:52 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm
My friend, the situation is simple since there are only two cases: 1) What you call eternal past is reachable (so it was at finite past), and 2) It is unreachable (it was in infinite past).

LOOK, this is even SIMPLER. That is; 'you' BELIEVE, ("without ANY shadow of a doubt", as some say), that infinity is IMPOSSIBLE to reach. Therefore, you are NOT OPEN to absolutely ANY thing else. And, it REALLY is just this SIMPLE.

What I SAY IS: eternity is REACHABLE. This is because I ALREADY KNOW how to SEE, and thus REACH 'It'.

What you call an "eternal past, which is reachable", is a "finite past" is YOUR CHOICE. But that choice of YOURS has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I am ACTUALLY talking about and SAYING.

If you EVER decided to ask 'me' for CLARIFICATION about what I am ACTUALLY SAYING and MEANING instead of just 'trying to' LOOK AT 'it' from YOUR PERSPECTIVE and ALREADY gained BELIEFS, then you just MIGHT come to understand some 'thing' other than YOUR OWN BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Please REFRAIN from TELLING 'me' about what I have ALREADY done and still do is NOT what I say it is.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm There was a beginning if it is reachable. You cannot reach unreachable in the second case therefore you cannot come from the eternal past to now.

You are SO BLINDED by your OWN BELIEFS you can NOT even SEE the OBVIOUS fallacies and faults you are making here.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:59 pm Therefore, the second case is not valid. The only case which is left is the first one. Therefore, there was a beginning.

AND LOL.

Okay, to 'you', there was 'A BEGINNING' to ABSOLUTELY Everything.

Now, if you want to be taken SERIOUSLY, then all you have to do is PROVE this.

Just let 'us' know when you would like to 'begin', okay?

Do you understand my argument? It seems that you don't.

And what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one TRYING to DEFLECT.

I do NOT KNOW, 100% FOR SURE, if I understand YOUR "arguments"/'views' or NOT.

I suggest if it seems to you that I do NOT, then that would imply it is 'you' who KNOWS, EXACTLY, WHERE.

So, WHY do you NOT inform 'us' WHERE and WHY, EXACTLY, you came to this view of YOURS?

While you are at it, how about you ALSO put YOUR argument in VERY SIMPLE point form?

By the way, you have, once again, FAILED to answer my CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, which does NOT help AT ALL in me being able to better understand YOUR, so called, "argument" here.

In fact some readers are SEEING your REFUSAL to just answer CLARIFYING QUESTIONS as EVIDENCE that even YOU do NOT YET FULLY understand your OWN "argument".

I KNOW you have reached a conclusion and that you BELIEVE that that conclusion is irrefutably TRUE, RIGHT, and CORRECT. But, how you got there through 'logical reasoning', to me, is NOT YET understood AT ALL. How you COULD EVEN get to that conclusion, logically, I have YET to SEE and understand ALSO.

So, if you BELIEVE that YOUR "argument" is sound and/or valid, then I suggest that 'you' SHOW this. Until then I still can NOT SEE what you BELIEVE you can SEE.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:52 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:41 pm

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:52 pm

LOOK, this is even SIMPLER. That is; 'you' BELIEVE, ("without ANY shadow of a doubt", as some say), that infinity is IMPOSSIBLE to reach. Therefore, you are NOT OPEN to absolutely ANY thing else. And, it REALLY is just this SIMPLE.

What I SAY IS: eternity is REACHABLE. This is because I ALREADY KNOW how to SEE, and thus REACH 'It'.

What you call an "eternal past, which is reachable", is a "finite past" is YOUR CHOICE. But that choice of YOURS has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I am ACTUALLY talking about and SAYING.

If you EVER decided to ask 'me' for CLARIFICATION about what I am ACTUALLY SAYING and MEANING instead of just 'trying to' LOOK AT 'it' from YOUR PERSPECTIVE and ALREADY gained BELIEFS, then you just MIGHT come to understand some 'thing' other than YOUR OWN BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

Please REFRAIN from TELLING 'me' about what I have ALREADY done and still do is NOT what I say it is.



You are SO BLINDED by your OWN BELIEFS you can NOT even SEE the OBVIOUS fallacies and faults you are making here.



AND LOL.

Okay, to 'you', there was 'A BEGINNING' to ABSOLUTELY Everything.

Now, if you want to be taken SERIOUSLY, then all you have to do is PROVE this.

Just let 'us' know when you would like to 'begin', okay?

Do you understand my argument? It seems that you don't.

And what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one TRYING to DEFLECT.

I do NOT KNOW, 100% FOR SURE, if I understand YOUR "arguments"/'views' or NOT.

I suggest if it seems to you that I do NOT, then that would imply it is 'you' who KNOWS, EXACTLY, WHERE.

So, WHY do you NOT inform 'us' WHERE and WHY, EXACTLY, you came to this view of YOURS?

While you are at it, how about you ALSO put YOUR argument in VERY SIMPLE point form?

By the way, you have, once again, FAILED to answer my CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, which does NOT help AT ALL in me being able to better understand YOUR, so called, "argument" here.

In fact some readers are SEEING your REFUSAL to just answer CLARIFYING QUESTIONS as EVIDENCE that even YOU do NOT YET FULLY understand your OWN "argument".

I KNOW you have reached a conclusion and that you BELIEVE that that conclusion is irrefutably TRUE, RIGHT, and CORRECT. But, how you got there through 'logical reasoning', to me, is NOT YET understood AT ALL. How you COULD EVEN get to that conclusion, logically, I have YET to SEE and understand ALSO.

So, if you BELIEVE that YOUR "argument" is sound and/or valid, then I suggest that 'you' SHOW this. Until then I still can NOT SEE what you BELIEVE you can SEE.

I am afraid that I cannot repeat myself and help you anymore. I invite you to read my argument about the beginning and explain it to me. Please.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:39 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:05 pm I mean, why I should suffer in this world.

If you believed in an objective reality, B., I'd think that was a very good question, and I'd give you an answer. But I don't even understand how somebody who believes "all is mind" can ask the question. If you don't believe in reality being real, then you're not suffering. Nothing is happening to you at all...it's a trick your "mind" is playing on you.

But maybe you don't really believe "all is mind." Maybe that's just an easy way of avoiding the question altogether. And maybe the question is really legitimate and needs to be asked.

Where do you stand on that? Is "all mind," or is there a reality in which you genuinely suffer? Can you help me understand your position?

I should have given the choices that Adam and Eve had.

We actually have even better choices, B.

I am in this fallen world, trapped, give evil and good nature. I do good sometimes. Sometimes I cannot avoid doing evil. I am rewarded by the first one and punished for the second one.

Well, there are no rewards and punishments being meted out right now, B. Good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good ones; and there's no pattern in it, other than the patterns that maybe follow from natural consequences. But God is clear: the time for judgment is not now. If you're suffering, it's not that God hates you. The man hanging on a cross should send that message to you if nothing does: suffering does not mean God hates you. It only means you're living in a fallen world, as you say.

And if I die after sinning before confessing, then my place would be in eternal Hell.

In a way, it's worse than that. Confession is actually worthless if it's all by itself. What good does it do if I steal your car, and then confess it? Then, all I've done is admitted to a crime...I haven't paid any restitution to you, nor even given back the car.

But in a way, the news is better: confess, change your mind, and appeal to God for salvation, and all is forgiven...and not merely overlooked or ignored, but actually judicially wiped out, so that you are completely free of guilt. As Jesus Himself promised,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

Notice the verb tenses? He "has" eternal life (already, now) and "does" (not ever fall under judgment), but "has" (already, now) passed out of death into life. That's what salvation means.

We are discussing your point of view now.

Yes, and I have no protest. I'm only curious as to how somebody who believes what you say you believe can even convince himself to launch an objection he has to believe is utter nonsense. I mean, unless evil is a real thing, there's no "problem of evil" to be addressed. It's like a "problem of ghosts."

In my point of view, we forget in order to fall into the fallen world.

But tease that out a bit. WHY do we "forget," if that's how it goes? What makes us "forget"? It has to be something sinister, doesn't it? And that thing has to be something beyond us, because it's the thing that makes us "forget" and "fall." So what is it? A devil? A demiurge? A cosmic "one mind" that for some reason has to become two?

You won't enjoy what you get. More life is like Hell.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

So your story ends and then starts over. So Cycle repeats.

So it's an eternal Hell?

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:26 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:52 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:41 pm
Do you understand my argument? It seems that you don't.

And what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one TRYING to DEFLECT.

I do NOT KNOW, 100% FOR SURE, if I understand YOUR "arguments"/'views' or NOT.

I suggest if it seems to you that I do NOT, then that would imply it is 'you' who KNOWS, EXACTLY, WHERE.

So, WHY do you NOT inform 'us' WHERE and WHY, EXACTLY, you came to this view of YOURS?

While you are at it, how about you ALSO put YOUR argument in VERY SIMPLE point form?

By the way, you have, once again, FAILED to answer my CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, which does NOT help AT ALL in me being able to better understand YOUR, so called, "argument" here.

In fact some readers are SEEING your REFUSAL to just answer CLARIFYING QUESTIONS as EVIDENCE that even YOU do NOT YET FULLY understand your OWN "argument".

I KNOW you have reached a conclusion and that you BELIEVE that that conclusion is irrefutably TRUE, RIGHT, and CORRECT. But, how you got there through 'logical reasoning', to me, is NOT YET understood AT ALL. How you COULD EVEN get to that conclusion, logically, I have YET to SEE and understand ALSO.

So, if you BELIEVE that YOUR "argument" is sound and/or valid, then I suggest that 'you' SHOW this. Until then I still can NOT SEE what you BELIEVE you can SEE.

I am afraid that I cannot repeat myself and help you anymore.

You could help me TREMENDOUSLY by just answering the clarifying questions posed to you.

What you said here is just an attempt of excusing your own inabilities.

Also, if you are afraid that you can NOT repeat "yourself", then, to some of us, this is a CLEAR SIGN that you do NOT even understand your OWN so called "argument" "yourself" here.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:26 pm I invite you to read my argument about the beginning and explain it to me. Please.

I invite you to read my clarifying questions and write your answers down here, so that we can ALL see them. But, what do you think the chances of this happening would be?

First off let us make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that YOUR argument about the ASSUMED beginning of Everything has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to with YOUR opening post here in this thread, and that YOUR opening post and topic title in this thread what just a lure to pull people in, so that you could get hooked to your BELIEF that there is NO 'eternity', and that the Universe began from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

YOUR, so called, "argument" revolves around this BELIEF of yours.

There is NO logical formula to YOUR "argument", NO explanation of this BELIEF of YOURS in YOUR "argument", and NOTHING sound NOR valid in YOUR "argument".

You had the conclusion FIRST, held as a BELIEF, and are saying absolutely ANY thing, in the hope that some 'thing' will fit in with and thus will work with YOUR BELIEF here.

So far, your "argument" has been 'eternity' is unreachable and because that MEANS that 'eternity' can NOT be reached, therefore the Universe BEGAN. You, literally, have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to use to explain WHAT the Universe/Everything came from, so you just INSIST that the Universe, literally, came from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING also.

And, the reason WHY you want to "argue" this, but hid this behind this thread title is because you wanted to draw in, so called, "religious people" so that you could "argue" with them about YOUR BELIEF that there is NO God.

If my explanation here about your, so called, "argument" about the beginning, is WRONG or INCORRECT in absolutely ANY part, then PLEASE feel absolutely FREE to CORRECT me EVERY where here.

By the way, I again invite you to answer ANY or preferably ALL of my clarifying questions, posed to 'you'.

Also, are you aware of the ACTUAL intention of asking 'clarifying' questions?

If you are NOT YET AWARE, then the reason WHY I ask 'clarifying' questions is so that I can BETTER UNDERSTAND the views/arguments of the "other".

So, if it seems to you that I do NOT understand your argument/s, then I suggest the OBVIOUS and that is; IF you STARTED answering my clarifying questions then I COULD understand your argument/s.

But SURELY this BLATANTLY ALREADY OBVIOUS FACT WOULD NOT 'need' explaining NOR even stating and saying, correct?

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:26 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:52 pm

And what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one TRYING to DEFLECT.

I do NOT KNOW, 100% FOR SURE, if I understand YOUR "arguments"/'views' or NOT.

I suggest if it seems to you that I do NOT, then that would imply it is 'you' who KNOWS, EXACTLY, WHERE.

So, WHY do you NOT inform 'us' WHERE and WHY, EXACTLY, you came to this view of YOURS?

While you are at it, how about you ALSO put YOUR argument in VERY SIMPLE point form?

By the way, you have, once again, FAILED to answer my CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, which does NOT help AT ALL in me being able to better understand YOUR, so called, "argument" here.

In fact some readers are SEEING your REFUSAL to just answer CLARIFYING QUESTIONS as EVIDENCE that even YOU do NOT YET FULLY understand your OWN "argument".

I KNOW you have reached a conclusion and that you BELIEVE that that conclusion is irrefutably TRUE, RIGHT, and CORRECT. But, how you got there through 'logical reasoning', to me, is NOT YET understood AT ALL. How you COULD EVEN get to that conclusion, logically, I have YET to SEE and understand ALSO.

So, if you BELIEVE that YOUR "argument" is sound and/or valid, then I suggest that 'you' SHOW this. Until then I still can NOT SEE what you BELIEVE you can SEE.

I am afraid that I cannot repeat myself and help you anymore.

You could help me TREMENDOUSLY by just answering the clarifying questions posed to you.

What you said here is just an attempt of excusing your own inabilities.

Also, if you are afraid that you can NOT repeat "yourself", then, to some of us, this is a CLEAR SIGN that you do NOT even understand your OWN so called "argument" "yourself" here.

So I repeat myself again: Please read this thread.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:26 pm I invite you to read my argument about the beginning and explain it to me. Please.

I invite you to read my clarifying questions and write your answers down here, so that we can ALL see them. But, what do you think the chances of this happening would be?

First off let us make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that YOUR argument about the ASSUMED beginning of Everything has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to with YOUR opening post here in this thread, and that YOUR opening post and topic title in this thread what just a lure to pull people in, so that you could get hooked to your BELIEF that there is NO 'eternity', and that the Universe began from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

YOUR, so called, "argument" revolves around this BELIEF of yours.

There is NO logical formula to YOUR "argument", NO explanation of this BELIEF of YOURS in YOUR "argument", and NOTHING sound NOR valid in YOUR "argument".

You had the conclusion FIRST, held as a BELIEF, and are saying absolutely ANY thing, in the hope that some 'thing' will fit in with and thus will work with YOUR BELIEF here.

So far, your "argument" has been 'eternity' is unreachable and because that MEANS that 'eternity' can NOT be reached, therefore the Universe BEGAN. You, literally, have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to use to explain WHAT the Universe/Everything came from, so you just INSIST that the Universe, literally, came from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING also.

And, the reason WHY you want to "argue" this, but hid this behind this thread title is because you wanted to draw in, so called, "religious people" so that you could "argue" with them about YOUR BELIEF that there is NO God.

If my explanation here about your, so called, "argument" about the beginning, is WRONG or INCORRECT in absolutely ANY part, then PLEASE feel absolutely FREE to CORRECT me EVERY where here.

By the way, I again invite you to answer ANY or preferably ALL of my clarifying questions, posed to 'you'.

Also, are you aware of the ACTUAL intention of asking 'clarifying' questions?

If you are NOT YET AWARE, then the reason WHY I ask 'clarifying' questions is so that I can BETTER UNDERSTAND the views/arguments of the "other".

So, if it seems to you that I do NOT understand your argument/s, then I suggest the OBVIOUS and that is; IF you STARTED answering my clarifying questions then I COULD understand your argument/s.

But SURELY this BLATANTLY ALREADY OBVIOUS FACT WOULD NOT 'need' explaining NOR even stating and saying, correct?

I provide you three different threads for each proof.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:54 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:26 pm
I am afraid that I cannot repeat myself and help you anymore.

You could help me TREMENDOUSLY by just answering the clarifying questions posed to you.

What you said here is just an attempt of excusing your own inabilities.

Also, if you are afraid that you can NOT repeat "yourself", then, to some of us, this is a CLEAR SIGN that you do NOT even understand your OWN so called "argument" "yourself" here.

So I repeat myself again: Please read this thread.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:26 pm I invite you to read my argument about the beginning and explain it to me. Please.

I invite you to read my clarifying questions and write your answers down here, so that we can ALL see them. But, what do you think the chances of this happening would be?

First off let us make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that YOUR argument about the ASSUMED beginning of Everything has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to with YOUR opening post here in this thread, and that YOUR opening post and topic title in this thread what just a lure to pull people in, so that you could get hooked to your BELIEF that there is NO 'eternity', and that the Universe began from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

YOUR, so called, "argument" revolves around this BELIEF of yours.

There is NO logical formula to YOUR "argument", NO explanation of this BELIEF of YOURS in YOUR "argument", and NOTHING sound NOR valid in YOUR "argument".

You had the conclusion FIRST, held as a BELIEF, and are saying absolutely ANY thing, in the hope that some 'thing' will fit in with and thus will work with YOUR BELIEF here.

So far, your "argument" has been 'eternity' is unreachable and because that MEANS that 'eternity' can NOT be reached, therefore the Universe BEGAN. You, literally, have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to use to explain WHAT the Universe/Everything came from, so you just INSIST that the Universe, literally, came from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING also.

And, the reason WHY you want to "argue" this, but hid this behind this thread title is because you wanted to draw in, so called, "religious people" so that you could "argue" with them about YOUR BELIEF that there is NO God.

If my explanation here about your, so called, "argument" about the beginning, is WRONG or INCORRECT in absolutely ANY part, then PLEASE feel absolutely FREE to CORRECT me EVERY where here.

By the way, I again invite you to answer ANY or preferably ALL of my clarifying questions, posed to 'you'.

Also, are you aware of the ACTUAL intention of asking 'clarifying' questions?

If you are NOT YET AWARE, then the reason WHY I ask 'clarifying' questions is so that I can BETTER UNDERSTAND the views/arguments of the "other".

So, if it seems to you that I do NOT understand your argument/s, then I suggest the OBVIOUS and that is; IF you STARTED answering my clarifying questions then I COULD understand your argument/s.

But SURELY this BLATANTLY ALREADY OBVIOUS FACT WOULD NOT 'need' explaining NOR even stating and saying, correct?

I provide you three different threads for each proof.

How do you define the word 'proof?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:39 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:40 pm
If you believed in an objective reality, B., I'd think that was a very good question, and I'd give you an answer. But I don't even understand how somebody who believes "all is mind" can ask the question. If you don't believe in reality being real, then you're not suffering. Nothing is happening to you at all...it's a trick your "mind" is playing on you.

But maybe you don't really believe "all is mind." Maybe that's just an easy way of avoiding the question altogether. And maybe the question is really legitimate and needs to be asked.

Where do you stand on that? Is "all mind," or is there a reality in which you genuinely suffer? Can you help me understand your position?


We actually have even better choices, B.


Well, there are no rewards and punishments being meted out right now, B. Good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good ones; and there's no pattern in it, other than the patterns that maybe follow from natural consequences. But God is clear: the time for judgment is not now. If you're suffering, it's not that God hates you. The man hanging on a cross should send that message to you if nothing does: suffering does not mean God hates you. It only means you're living in a fallen world, as you say.


In a way, it's worse than that. Confession is actually worthless if it's all by itself. What good does it do if I steal your car, and then confess it? Then, all I've done is admitted to a crime...I haven't paid any restitution to you, nor even given back the car.

But in a way, the news is better: confess, change your mind, and appeal to God for salvation, and all is forgiven...and not merely overlooked or ignored, but actually judicially wiped out, so that you are completely free of guilt. As Jesus Himself promised,

“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)

Notice the verb tenses? He "has" eternal life (already, now) and "does" (not ever fall under judgment), but "has" (already, now) passed out of death into life. That's what salvation means.

We are discussing your point of view now.

Yes, and I have no protest. I'm only curious as to how somebody who believes what you say you believe can even convince himself to launch an objection he has to believe is utter nonsense. I mean, unless evil is a real thing, there's no "problem of evil" to be addressed. It's like a "problem of ghosts."

So, why animals are in the fallen world in your opinion?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

In my point of view, we forget in order to fall into the fallen world.

But tease that out a bit. WHY do we "forget," if that's how it goes? What makes us "forget"? It has to be something sinister, doesn't it? And that thing has to be something beyond us, because it's the thing that makes us "forget" and "fall." So what is it? A devil? A demiurge? A cosmic "one mind" that for some reason has to become two?

It is evil. But it is necessary. Anyone can do it. It is a matter of patient and practice.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

You won't enjoy what you get. More life is like Hell.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

So your story ends and then starts over. So Cycle repeats.

So it's an eternal Hell?

It is the mind that creates different stories. The point is that in each story we experience things as they are new since we forget everything. So it is worth trying. Otherwise, you are exposed to everything so nothing can be ever new to you.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:44 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:54 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 am

You could help me TREMENDOUSLY by just answering the clarifying questions posed to you.

What you said here is just an attempt of excusing your own inabilities.

Also, if you are afraid that you can NOT repeat "yourself", then, to some of us, this is a CLEAR SIGN that you do NOT even understand your OWN so called "argument" "yourself" here.

So I repeat myself again: Please read this thread.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 am
I invite you to read my clarifying questions and write your answers down here, so that we can ALL see them. But, what do you think the chances of this happening would be?

First off let us make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that YOUR argument about the ASSUMED beginning of Everything has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to with YOUR opening post here in this thread, and that YOUR opening post and topic title in this thread what just a lure to pull people in, so that you could get hooked to your BELIEF that there is NO 'eternity', and that the Universe began from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

YOUR, so called, "argument" revolves around this BELIEF of yours.

There is NO logical formula to YOUR "argument", NO explanation of this BELIEF of YOURS in YOUR "argument", and NOTHING sound NOR valid in YOUR "argument".

You had the conclusion FIRST, held as a BELIEF, and are saying absolutely ANY thing, in the hope that some 'thing' will fit in with and thus will work with YOUR BELIEF here.

So far, your "argument" has been 'eternity' is unreachable and because that MEANS that 'eternity' can NOT be reached, therefore the Universe BEGAN. You, literally, have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to use to explain WHAT the Universe/Everything came from, so you just INSIST that the Universe, literally, came from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING also.

And, the reason WHY you want to "argue" this, but hid this behind this thread title is because you wanted to draw in, so called, "religious people" so that you could "argue" with them about YOUR BELIEF that there is NO God.

If my explanation here about your, so called, "argument" about the beginning, is WRONG or INCORRECT in absolutely ANY part, then PLEASE feel absolutely FREE to CORRECT me EVERY where here.

By the way, I again invite you to answer ANY or preferably ALL of my clarifying questions, posed to 'you'.

Also, are you aware of the ACTUAL intention of asking 'clarifying' questions?

If you are NOT YET AWARE, then the reason WHY I ask 'clarifying' questions is so that I can BETTER UNDERSTAND the views/arguments of the "other".

So, if it seems to you that I do NOT understand your argument/s, then I suggest the OBVIOUS and that is; IF you STARTED answering my clarifying questions then I COULD understand your argument/s.

But SURELY this BLATANTLY ALREADY OBVIOUS FACT WOULD NOT 'need' explaining NOR even stating and saying, correct?

I provide you three different threads for each proof.

How do you define the word 'proof?

A statement that is correct and fills the gap between two other statements which the first statement is accepted to be true and the second one is considered to be true as a matter of proof.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:39 pm
We are discussing your point of view now.

Yes, and I have no protest. I'm only curious as to how somebody who believes what you say you believe can even convince himself to launch an objection he has to believe is utter nonsense. I mean, unless evil is a real thing, there's no "problem of evil" to be addressed. It's like a "problem of ghosts."

So, why animals are in the fallen world in your opinion?

Well, as a Christian, I believe that animals were part of the original creation. They were already there when mankind fell, and when creation as a whole also fell with him.

But I still don't see how, since you don't believe that, you feel confident to speak of there being a problem of animal suffering, or a problem of evil. For you, don't both have to be mere illusions of the mind?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

In my point of view, we forget in order to fall into the fallen world.

But tease that out a bit. WHY do we "forget," if that's how it goes? What makes us "forget"? It has to be something sinister, doesn't it? And that thing has to be something beyond us, because it's the thing that makes us "forget" and "fall." So what is it? A devil? A demiurge? A cosmic "one mind" that for some reason has to become two?

It is evil. But it is necessary. Anyone can do it. It is a matter of patient and practice.

I'm sorry...I can't decide what the pronoun "it" in your statement refers to. Grammatically, you just suggested that the Cosmic One Mind is evil...but I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant; so what exactly was the "it" in your claim? And what is "necessary"? The falling? Or the "being enlightened out of the fall" the "illumination"? What can "anyone do"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm

You won't enjoy what you get. More life is like Hell.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about: what's the source of "not enjoying" or "Hell" in your world?

I didn't see the answer to this...did I miss it?

It is the mind that creates different stories.

The One Cosmic Mind, the many minds of other people, or the minds animals have? Which "mind" does this?