Philosophy Now Forum

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:38 am Forget my soul which you keep harping on...

Seems to me that that is exactly what you've done.

Yet nothing could be more important. Nothing.

Mark 8:36 "For what does it benefit a person to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?"

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:52 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:07 am God is an Impossibility to be real
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

I saw this discussion already. It's irrelevant. There are no answers there, just your own gratuitous assumptions formed into a dogmatic reasserting of the same obviously-faulty suppositions.

Yes, therein there is no affirmative answers that God exists as real because the question of whether God exists is non-starter, i.e. it is an impossibility for God to exists as real empirically and philosophically.

You are merely making noises, where is your argument and critical point that 'sunk' my argument?

Immanuel Can wrote:...the best you get is to die meaninglessly and plunge into endless night.

To ensure your own security you are transposing your own state of terror and meaningless to others who do not share the same belief as yours.

Actually, not at all. It has to be quite obvious to you that any honest Atheist has to know exactly the same thing. There is no afterlife, by Atheism. There is only personal death at the end of every life, and cosmic heat death at the end of the universe. That is exactly what follows IF the Atheist himself gets everything he's expecting.

Any non-theist in the know do realize life, in one major perspective, is inherently and by default entails a state of existential sufferings which need to be managed. That is the reality of life.
Many non-theists recognize this reality and strive to manage the inherent existential sufferings, e.g. Buddhists, Jainists, Taoists and the likes.
As such these non-theists are dealing with reality on hand.

Theists [like you] on the other hand failed to recognize this inherent existential sufferings but instead fictitiously, illusorily and like-an-ostrich invents a God and transfer the problem to an unprovable afterlife of hell or heaven.

Where is your proof, "a cosmic heat death at the end of the universe," exists?

Instead of condemning non-theists to punishment in hell by an provable illusory God, theists [you] should realize the reality, "hell" is within you [and all] at present.
All humans should deal with this inherent hell within rationally and wisely and not by theistic ways that end up killing, hating or condemning non-theists and other theists for unreal [fictitious] grounds.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:26 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:38 am Forget my soul which you keep harping on...

Seems to me that that is exactly what you've done.

Yet nothing could be more important. Nothing.

Mark 8:36 "For what does it benefit a person to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?"

Let me worry about my soul; instead think of it in the plural. If nothing is so important what happens to the souls of those who do not believe in Jesus but maintain their own religious beliefs whose scripture is not bible based. If as important as you say, wouldn't the consequences also be? To repeat, does this mean that Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus forfeit their souls by the historical practice of their own beliefs just as the Jews have done retaining the OT but dispensing with the NT?

You say you have three different answers without giving a single one to a very fundamental question.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:34 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:52 pm It has to be quite obvious to you that any honest Atheist has to know exactly the same thing. There is no afterlife, by Atheism. There is only personal death at the end of every life, and cosmic heat death at the end of the universe. That is exactly what follows IF the Atheist himself gets everything he's expecting.

Where is your proof, "a cosmic heat death at the end of the universe," exists?

Proof? Ask the Atheist for it. He's the one whose views I'm telling you about, not my own.

But I can help you out. His view is premised on the supposition that the entropy that we now scientifically observe in the universe will continue unchecked. If it does (at any rate at all, no matter how slow), then he's right...we'll all perish in the heat death of the universe, eventually. It would be inevitable.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:21 am Let me worry about my soul...

Somebody should. Apparently, you're not doing it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:44 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:21 am Let me worry about my soul...

Somebody should. Apparently, you're not doing it.

What by now is so morbidly obvious is that whenever you're unable to address an argument you attack the one who made it! It's the classic ad hominem fallacy which you accused so many of whenever you found it convenient! Ignoring an argument or question is your usual method of trying to save face when you feel cornered by the logic of it.

So after all the interminable accusations your imagination could muster against atheism you can't or refuse to give an adequate response to a question which is simply an extension of the logic you've endlessly employed against atheists! Yet concurrently you claim having three answers to the question that was asked. If you really could claim that kind of credibility who would be dumb enough to believe you wouldn't?

I suspect you know how the bible regards liars & hypocrites!? If Jesus gave a pass to such as you then oblivion must surely be the better choice.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:41 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:34 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:52 pm It has to be quite obvious to you that any honest Atheist has to know exactly the same thing. There is no afterlife, by Atheism. There is only personal death at the end of every life, and cosmic heat death at the end of the universe. That is exactly what follows IF the Atheist himself gets everything he's expecting.

Where is your proof, "a cosmic heat death at the end of the universe," exists?

Proof? Ask the Atheist for it. He's the one whose views I'm telling you about, not my own.

But I can help you out. His view is premised on the supposition that the entropy that we now scientifically observe in the universe will continue unchecked. If it does (at any rate at all, no matter how slow), then he's right...we'll all perish in the heat death of the universe, eventually. It would be inevitable.

You are very ignorant on the above.

Yes, theoretically the Earth will be destroyed in the very high heat of the Sun when the Earth eventually orbit into the Sun.

But humans will NOT be there in that event, humans will be extinct when the Sun got nearer to Earth to the extent there are no trees, forests, food production to sustain human living. Humans will be extinct by starvation not by heat.

It will be millions or billion of years when the Earth will be sucked into the Sun. It will be more billions before the existing Universe will be dissolved into heat.

My point is prove to me all the non-theists that are dead long ago and into the next hundreds of years, are still alive now [hell or otherwise] and will suffer a "a cosmic heat death at the end of the universe,".

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:44 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:21 am Let me worry about my soul...

Somebody should. Apparently, you're not doing it.

What by now is so morbidly obvious is that whenever you're unable to address an argument you attack the one who made it!

You poor fellow.

I'm not "attacking" you -- I'm advocating for your soul. I want the best for you, and ironically, you want the best you can get to be meaninglessness in life and oblivion in death. And I really don't need to tell you that's how it is...your Atheism will tell you, if you only listen to it.

I'm saying "That's not how it has to be," and you're wildly obfuscating by trying to deflect to some hypothetical "other" people who have different circumstances from yours.

Now, it makes perfect sense that I talk to you about Atheism -- not about Hinduism, or Occultism, or Rastafarianism, which are all belief systems you don't even have. What care you for them? As an Atheist, you have to simply think they're all nonsense. And you have to believe that all of us are simply are barrelling down into the same dark eternal hole that you have chosen for yourself. What else can you suppose? And given that, what difference could it possibly make which error pushes us into the oblivion you've chosen to believe we're all headed to? So why do you care?

But by your own Atheist "lights," you have condemned yourself to eternal oblivion. Yet you don't want to talk about that.

And me, you think I'm the one off topic?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:22 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:34 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:21 pm Does the I AM causer of all things have an image? you still haven't answered the question.

Actually, I did. Hebrews 1:3. Read it, this time.

You are still avoiding the difficult answer.

Truth is, you have no image of God have you? all IC can show is a bunch of sound, heard as words, manifest as a symbolic image in the form of knowledge known as conceptual knowledge, which is innate to a human primates understanding.
Knowledge is another survival tool evolution uses to advance itself forward in order to keep up the replication of being a human primate which as and through it's knowledge can know that pain is bad and no pain is good. . which is a positive bonus.

So the only image of God is the word...is that how you see the image of God?

When you IC claim your existence of being, all you are doing is simply adding an artifical overlay of your own known knowledge upon what actually exists prior to and without any knowledge of such self-aware knowing. And yes, this knowing self-awareness does have it's advantages, it can be aware of the suffering mess that is evolution's business, and so it can clean up the mess if it wants to. It can stop this cheese chazing maze game any time it wants.

But getting back to the image of God issue..

Do you know what these words mean? ..... ''The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflection; The water has no mind to retain their image''

The image of God is that of the measuring capacity of man existing as a fractal, within a fractal universe, with this fractal being that of man him/herself.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:49 pm What by now is so morbidly obvious is that whenever you're unable to address an argument you attack the one who made it!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:44 pm You poor fellow.

I'm not "attacking" you -- I'm advocating for your soul. I want the best for you, and ironically, you want the best you can get to be meaninglessness in life and oblivion in death. And I really don't need to tell you that's how it is...your Atheism will tell you, if you only listen to it.

I'm saying "That's not how it has to be," and you're wildly obfuscating by trying to deflect to some hypothetical "other" people who have different circumstances from yours.

Now, it makes perfect sense that I talk to you about Atheism -- not about Hinduism, or Occultism, or Rastafarianism, which are all belief systems you don't even have. What care you for them? As an Atheist, you have to simply think they're all nonsense. And you have to believe that all of us are simply are barrelling down into the same dark eternal hole that you have chosen for yourself. What else can you suppose? And given that, what difference could it possibly make which error pushes us into the oblivion you've chosen to believe we're all headed to? So why do you care?

Do you really believe that I believe, or anyone, is in the least concerned about my soul? You sound like a snake-oil evangelist when you say "I'm advocating for your soul!" We both know that's a complete lie! You told me many times completely certain, where I, an atheist, am heading as if you would know. But most people are still believers in something even if it's not Jesus which logically leads to the question, what about them? What's their fate? It's as much a philosophic as a religious question and yet all your responses amount to warnings and preaching that I'm heading toward oblivion or worse! Look up the definition for ad hominem in case you forgot it.

In short, leave me the hell out of it and adjust your responses to the arguments in question.

It's clear why you strive so intensely to avoid the question. Per your wager, remaining faithful to Jesus resolves in damning all others who don't subscribe to his words as given in the NT. Conversely you may feel, in refusing to cast members of other beliefs so easily into oblivion as you would an atheist, that you have forsaken Jesus and put your own soul in jeopardy. Of course, this you will absolutely refuse to do. Your binary wager (believe or don't believe and accept the consequences) won't allow it.

Instead of desperately avoiding any discussion of what should structurally be inherent in god by pretending to be so concerned with only my soul, I, the atheist have my own idea in how to respond to such a fundamental question - to which you couldn't come up with even one reason though claiming to know three!.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:51 pm But by your own Atheist "lights," you have condemned yourself to eternal oblivion. Yet you don't want to talk about that.

Don't know how many times you threatened with your perdition sermons. Okay, if you say so, not that YOU or even I have anything to say about it. Are we settled on that once and for all!?

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:37 am Do you really believe that I believe, or anyone, is in the least concerned about my soul?

You might be surprised.

You're a human being: that means that you're somebody God created and for whom Christ died. That makes you of infinite value...even if you don't know it. But you're also a free agent, which means you choose your own situation. So nobody can make you care about things you decide not to be concerned about.

You told me many times where I, an atheist, am heading as if you would know.

No, I cautioned you as to where Atheism necessitates you are heading. But you can get the same information from any logical Atheist, or just from thinking about it logically yourself; so you don't need my word for that. You can figure it out.

Are we settled on that once and for all!?

I don't know: are you happy with where you think you're going? If you are, you're "settled," I guess. But I hope you're not.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:48 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:37 am Do you really believe that I believe, or anyone, is in the least concerned about my soul?

You might be surprised.

You're a human being: that means that you're somebody God created and for whom Christ died. That makes you of infinite value...even if you don't know it. But you're also a free agent, which means you choose your own situation. So nobody can make you care about things you decide not to be concerned about.

You told me many times where I, an atheist, am heading as if you would know.

No, I cautioned you as to where Atheism necessitates you are heading. But you can get the same information from any logical Atheist, or just from thinking about it logically yourself; so you don't need my word for that. You can figure it out.

Are we settled on that once and for all!?

I don't know: are you happy with where you think you're going? If you are, you're "settled," I guess. But I hope you're not.

If atheism necessitates where I'm heading namely into that very long Before which equals the very long After of my in-between hiatus of existence, I have absolutely no problem with that. Time no-longer rules and the Final Solution to whether one is atheist, theist or anything else organic. It's the laws of the universe to which all things surrender and not to the words of a Jewish preacher who, at least in the synoptic gospels, never claimed to be god or divine in the first place.

No idea for what reason Jesus would have died for me who showed up without anyone asking for my consent 2000 years later. It again begs the question what about all the ones before Jesus, did he die for them too though for which reason I can't imagine.

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:58 am If atheism necessitates where I'm heading namely into that very long Before which equals the very long After of my in-between hiatus of existence, I have absolutely no problem with that.

If Atheism is right, then you can have that. I still think it's a bad deal. It's just not quite as bad as if Atheism is false. But it's a choice between bad alternatives, it seems to me.

No idea for what reason Jesus would have died for me who showed up without anyone asking for my consent 2000 years later.

It's quite possible God has better plans for your soul than you have, up to this point anyway, been willing to entertain for yourself. After all, if God is ultimately good, it would be surprising if His designs for your benefit and for your future were less ambitious and less significant than those you could simply conceive for yourself, would it not?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:09 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:58 am If atheism necessitates where I'm heading namely into that very long Before which equals the very long After of my in-between hiatus of existence, I have absolutely no problem with that.

If Atheism is right, then you can have that. I still think it's a bad deal. It's just not quite as bad as if Atheism is false. But it's a choice between bad alternatives, it seems to me.

No idea for what reason Jesus would have died for me who showed up without anyone asking for my consent 2000 years later.

It's quite possible God has better plans for your soul than you have, up to this point anyway, been willing to entertain for yourself. After all, if God is ultimately good, it would be surprising if His designs for your benefit and for your future were less ambitious and less significant than those you could simply conceive for yourself, would it not?

That doesn't relate as to why Jesus would have died for me as you claim. Are you referring to Adam's original sin which we supposedly all inherited?

As for oblivion, the problem is not being there, which is really no problem, the problem is getting there. Many times one has to earn the privilege in daily payments of misery.

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 pm That doesn't relate as to why Jesus would have died for me as you claim. Are you referring to Adam's original sin which we supposedly all inherited?

We don't need to trouble ourselves about others...we all have enough sins of our own. We should start at home: we should ask, IF there's a God, what's wrong with me, and with my world? And if there's a God, then why is it I seem to be so far away from Him? Why don't I know Him?

As for oblivion, the problem is not being there, which is really no problem, the problem is getting there. Many times one has to earn the privilege in daily payments of misery.

Wow, that's even more grim than I would have put it: "daily payments of misery" will one day buy "oblivion." I would have said that life is not merely "payments of misery," but also occasions of happiness and even delight, as well. There is certainly enough misery to go around, but it's not the whole story. But if all of that should turn out to be nothing but a ticked to eternal nothingness, then the bargain's looking worse all the time.