Is transgender something to get upset about?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Gender reassignment surgeons are geared to offer their trade as a solution to gender dysphoria. Just like the woman that is convinced that she is able to eat chocolate without getting fat, those surgeons think they have to answer to a socio-mental problem of children that even before they are fully male or female think that their gender is wrong, and are told that being a tuff girl or a weak boy is no way to live.
Before the days of surgery people learned to live with what nature had given them. And just because you can, does not mean you should.

Not at all true, Hobbes. People have switched sex roles from the dawn of humanity,.[/quote]

We are not talking about switching roles, we are talking about taking the knife to children to cut off their penises or remove their wombs. Surgeries that are completely irreversible that make them sterile, when there is every chance that they might have changed their minds later.
Not only is it a denial that girls who are manly are acceptable, and that boys who are feminine are also unacceptable; in some cases it is physical abuse. A child may not make legal consent by definition.
But some of these surgeries are driven by the parent's lifestyle choices, and the greed of the surgeons.

My own body was abused at birth without my permission. This was a regrettable standard practice in US hospitals. These days genital mutilation is regarded as abuse.

[Greta]

You clearly don't know any transpeople.

Not at all true, actually. In fact, I'd be mighty surprised if you happened to be one of the people who know more than I've known.

Very, very unlikely. How do you get to know so many?

Suicides are largely caused by discrimination.

Not true at all. The facts don't bear that interpretation at all. Look at the most discriminated-against communities, then compare them to gender-dysphoric people, and you'll see. Discrimination is not the cause of suicides. The Black community kills themselves less often than whites do, actually.

It is naive to compare large tight-knit communities with isolated individuals. Psychology 101. I can see you have a blockage in this area, which is rather interesting.

I don't even think gender dysphoria would exist without such discrimination.

Oh, I see...it's the fault of doctors. If we didn't tell them they were mentally-ill, then they wouldn't be? Is that your theory?

Gender dysphoria long pre-dated doctors.

This is looking like hard work. If you are going to play "disingenuous" and "circular", forcing me to correct obvious errors, it's just not worth it. I dislike this kind of gaming, Immanuel, and refuse to play. It's pretty clear that you don't "get it" and I can't be bothered playing The Game.

I am curious as to why you are so intensely interested in transpeople and in controlling their behaviours, especially in context of your many contacts with them. You prefer your transgenders uncut, yes? More exciting?

[Greta]

Gender reassignment surgeons are geared to offer their trade as a solution to gender dysphoria. Just like the woman that is convinced that she is able to eat chocolate without getting fat, those surgeons think they have to answer to a socio-mental problem of children that even before they are fully male or female think that their gender is wrong, and are told that being a tuff girl or a weak boy is no way to live.
Before the days of surgery people learned to live with what nature had given them. And just because you can, does not mean you should.

Not at all true, Hobbes. People have switched sex roles from the dawn of humanity,.

We are not talking about switching roles, we are talking about taking the knife to children to cut off their penises or remove their wombs. Surgeries that are completely irreversible that make them sterile, when there is every chance that they might have changed their minds later.
Not only is it a denial that girls who are manly are acceptable, and that boys who are feminine are also unacceptable; in some cases it is physical abuse. A child may not make legal consent by definition.
But some of these surgeries are driven by the parent's lifestyle choices, and the greed of the surgeons.

My own body was abused at birth without my permission. This was a regrettable standard practice in US hospitals. These days genital mutilation is regarded as abuse.

So what? It's only bodies, and not yours and absolutely none of your business!

Think of all the things people do to their bodies throughout history.

I agree there are issues in constricted gender roles but that's all and probably the more profound and interesting subject that picking on outliers.

It seems you prefer early suicide due to lack of surgery rather than later suicide after it supposedly doesn't work out. My understanding is that there's very, very little post surgical regret, except when the new parts present serious health problems or are non functional.

Interesting to see you and Immanuel as ideological allies ...

Edit; format errors looking like Hobbes's comments were mine

[thedoc]

Except that modern Jews don't really look much like Jews these days; they are too white for a start.

Probably due to many have migrated from a Sunny climate to colder climates where lighter skin is prevalent.

How?

Jews were migrating to other parts of the world long before Jesus, so how many generations, in a colder climate, does it take for the skin to lighten?

[Greta]

Probably due to many have migrated from a Sunny climate to colder climates where lighter skin is prevalent.

How?

Jews were migrating to other parts of the world long before Jesus, so how many generations, in a colder climate, does it take for the skin to lighten?

Probably not too many. Big nose and thick lips are hints, never minding colour.

Tightness with money is another hint, as is the tendency to say whatever gets results rather than be authentic. Put all four together and you'll pick plenty of them, no matter what shade of skin. I can say this because I have many Jews in my family and I have worked to overcome some of those less pleasant tendencies. The struggle for authenticity is especially challenging, which I guess is the crux of the topic. We want to be authentic, to not feel boxed in, forced to be false at a fundamental level of personality (not the usual everyday masks we adopt - parent, child, relative, friend, colleague, etc).

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Except that modern Jews don't really look much like Jews these days; they are too white for a start.

Personally i don't give a flying rats what Jesus looked like. That said, Jews tend to procreate within their own faith, i'm not aware of them making a concerted effort to breed with the more 'white' types, and they appear to be overall extremely 'white'.

The point is that they are white because they are not from Palestine, Judea, or Israel. Jews come from everywhere but. They come from all over the world; US, Europe, Russia.

You still get people who look like the stereotypical jewish. I mean, how could Dustin Hoffman be anything but jewish?
It does get a bit ridiculous when American Swedish pink-piggy types with no religious or cultural involvement, and only a tenuous link to some relative in the past call themselves 'jewish'. It makes the word meaningless.

[thedoc]

How?

Jews were migrating to other parts of the world long before Jesus, so how many generations, in a colder climate, does it take for the skin to lighten?

Probably not too many. Big nose and thick lips are hints, never minding colour.

Tightness with money is another hint, as is the tendency to say whatever gets results rather than be authentic. Put all four together and you'll pick plenty of them, no matter what shade of skin. I can say this because I have many Jews in my family and I have worked to overcome some of those less pleasant tendencies. The struggle for authenticity is especially challenging, which I guess is the crux of the topic. We want to be authentic, to not feel boxed in, forced to be false at a fundamental level of personality (not the usual everyday masks we adopt - parent, child, relative, friend, colleague, etc).

Have you ever read "Mudhouse Sabbath"? It's a series of essays on various aspects of Jewish practice. Some of them would be quite beneficial to all people.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

How?

Jews were migrating to other parts of the world long before Jesus, so how many generations, in a colder climate, does it take for the skin to lighten?

Probably not too many. Big nose and thick lips are hints, never minding colour.

Tightness with money is another hint, as is the tendency to say whatever gets results rather than be authentic. Put all four together and you'll pick plenty of them, no matter what shade of skin. I can say this because I have many Jews in my family and I have worked to overcome some of those less pleasant tendencies. The struggle for authenticity is especially challenging, which I guess is the crux of the topic. We want to be authentic, to not feel boxed in, forced to be false at a fundamental level of personality (not the usual everyday masks we adopt - parent, child, relative, friend, colleague, etc).

What are you talking about?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I must say that the stereotypical jewish look like Dustin Hoffman has is extremely attractive, so it's no wonder lots of women wanted to mate with them. Perhaps that's why they made it the mother who carries the line.

[Immanuel Can]

How do you get to know so many?

Work, in particular. I work in a field where one can never escape anything that's going on.

It is naive to compare large tight-knit communities with isolated individuals. Psychology 101.

You're unfamiliar with Statistics 101, it's clear: an anecdote isn't an argument. You seem to think a single experience you claim to have had counts as some kind of counter-argument. In fact, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Gender dysphoria long pre-dated doctors.

So did mental illness...but I notice you don't mention that.

This is looking like hard work. If you are going to play "disingenuous" and "circular", forcing me to correct obvious errors, it's just not worth it. I dislike this kind of gaming, Immanuel, and refuse to play. It's pretty clear that you don't "get it" and I can't be bothered playing The Game.

Ah. When you are losing your argument, especially because the facts don't back you, it's because it's a "game." When you think you're winning, even by nothing more than rhetorical flourish, it's an "argument."

I'm going to disagree with you there. I think the real "argument" is the one backed by the facts. The "game," I think, is what you have to play to escape the facts.

[Immanuel Can]

We are not talking about switching roles, we are talking about taking the knife to children to cut off their penises or remove their wombs. Surgeries that are completely irreversible that make them sterile, when there is every chance that they might have changed their minds later.
Not only is it a denial that girls who are manly are acceptable, and that boys who are feminine are also unacceptable; in some cases it is physical abuse. A child may not make legal consent by definition.
But some of these surgeries are driven by the parent's lifestyle choices, and the greed of the surgeons.

My own body was abused at birth without my permission. This was a regrettable standard practice in US hospitals. These days genital mutilation is regarded as abuse.

Good heavens! Am I going to end up agreeing with Hobbes?

Okay: go Hobbes go.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

How do you get to know so many?

Work, in particular. I work in a field where one can never escape anything that's going on.

What 'field' would that be? Let me guess, you can't say.

[Immanuel Can]

What 'field' would that be? Let me guess, you can't say.

Oh, I can say, sure. Will I say? No. I'll just tell you that I doubt many people have as much exposure to other human beings from all walks of life as I have. There will be a few, I imagine...but not many. However, if it were NOT so, it would still make absolutely no difference to the present question.

The argument stands on its own merits. It's true, or it's not.

It's that simple.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

What 'field' would that be? Let me guess, you can't say.

Oh, I can say, sure. Will I say? No. I'll just tell you that I doubt many people have as much exposure to other human beings from all walks of life as I have. There will be a few, I imagine...but not many. However, if it were NOT so, it would still make absolutely no difference to the present question.

The argument stands on its own merits. It's true, or it's not.

It's that simple.

So predictable. I just hope you don't have any kind of power over the vulnerable in your 'field'.

[thedoc]

What 'field' would that be? Let me guess, you can't say.

Oh, I can say, sure. Will I say? No. I'll just tell you that I doubt many people have as much exposure to other human beings from all walks of life as I have. There will be a few, I imagine...but not many. However, if it were NOT so, it would still make absolutely no difference to the present question.

The argument stands on its own merits. It's true, or it's not.

It's that simple.

So predictable. I just hope you don't have any kind of power over the vulnerable in your 'field'.

Why? are you so fearful that he could influence them for the good, as opposed to your influence to the negative?

So he works in a field where NDA is in effect, and you disagree with that policy.