Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote: excellent observation

in plato's cave analogy the people only see them selves as shadows, so focused on the shadow they don't see the source of the shadow, they identify with the projection and don't give a thought to the projector which is their true self


He doesn’t come to you. He cannot come to you. He never went away. You are the one who went away, so you go to Him. ~ Shri Prashant

Yes, and that is why insight is so important and why empiricism falls short. I don't know who or what first discovered water, but it is most unlikely it was a fish studying a reef.

Immanuel Can wrote:Answer: because men don't know God, and because prejudice is easier than knowledge, mockery is easier than reason, self-satisfaction is more pleasant than self-examination, mutual congratulation is more companionable than the lone quest for truth, and men love darkness rather than the Light. (John 3:19).

Of course this also applies to those who would identify themselves as theists. Saying one knows a god, is not knowing -- and theist behavior includes all of the above.

Lacewing wrote: Of course this also applies to those who would identify themselves as theists. Saying one knows a god, is not knowing -- and theist behavior includes all of the above.

Pay close attention to the highlighted words. They go to the heart of why the Santa thing is illegitimate.

Reflex wrote:
Yes, and that is why insight is so important and why empiricism falls short. I don't know who or what first discovered water, but it is most unlikely it was a fish studying a reef.

Well said.

Reflex wrote:

FlashDangerpants wrote:So. The Santa thing is mean sprited but apposite.

Mean-spirited and illegitimate, you mean. It's a way of avoiding having to posit a cogent argument for disbelief (assuming, of course, the person is not the intellectual equivalent of a rock).

You never put together an argument. You vaguely alluded to one, but it largely amounted to boring accusations of brain injury when push came to shove.

If you want to put some effort in then be my guest. But so far you are too lazy and abusive and we are rapidly running out of interest in you.

I don't believe in Santa, I don't believe in the Buddhist God-Head, I don't believe in Allah or Jehovah or the heavens that sent down Ghenghis Khan. Nor in Kronos, Jupiter, Satan or Baaaaal. All these entities occupy one significant category (things which FDP beleives to be mythical), and as such they share a significant property (FDP belief=0), which I hold is not a mistakenly attributed to that category. I do believe the universe exists. I do not believe the Universe exists within the category of thingies that are valid to be worshipped.

Saying one knows God, is not the same as knowing. Anyone can say and believe and make-up and distort ANYTHING.

Identifying oneself as a theist ensures NOTHING.

The statement below is obviously and fully applicable to theists too, as is proven by what is continually being demonstrated through their words, thoughts, and behavior:

men don't know God, and because prejudice is easier than knowledge, mockery is easier than reason, self-satisfaction is more pleasant than self-examination, mutual congratulation is more companionable than the lone quest for truth, and men love darkness rather than the Light.

Identifying as a theist doesn't give one immunity within a special club. If anything, this sets one up for greater risk of delusional self-glory within a closed mind... the greatest intoxication of the human ego. And such appears to be on full display in every direction we look.

FlashDangerpants wrote:
I don't believe in Santa, I don't believe in the Buddhist God-Head, I don't believe in Allah or Jehovah or the heavens.

I do believe the universe exists. I do not believe the Universe exists within the category of thingies that are valid to be worshipped.

Believing in the universe is also a form of worshipping.

I believe in this, but not that, who is this I taking a position in the form of a conceptual belief?

Existence just IS..it is Tacit

Dontaskme wrote: Believing in the universe is also a form of worshipping.

Do you believe I exist?
Do you worship me?

FlashDangerpants wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: Believing in the universe is also a form of worshipping.

Do you believe I exist?
Do you worship me?

One thing that cannot be denied by anything is that you exist right now.

What is there to believe or worship?

So that unenlightening aside is done with now? We can believe a thing exists without worshipping it.
We may continue with all the other unenlightening things we have lined up?

Lacewing wrote:Saying one knows God, is not the same as knowing. Anyone can say and believe and make-up and distort ANYTHING.

Identifying oneself as a theist ensures NOTHING.

The statement below is obviously and fully applicable to theists too, as is proven by what is continually being demonstrated through their words, thoughts, and behavior:

men don't know God, and because prejudice is easier than knowledge, mockery is easier than reason, self-satisfaction is more pleasant than self-examination, mutual congratulation is more companionable than the lone quest for truth, and men love darkness rather than the Light.

Identifying as a theist doesn't give one immunity within a special club. If anything, this sets one up for greater risk of delusional self-glory within a closed mind... the greatest intoxication of the human ego. And such appears to be on full display in every direction we look.

Lacewing, I know that I am not the target of your hate and vitriol. What's your real problem? Who or what are you really lashing out at?

Dontaskme wrote:

FlashDangerpants wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: Believing in the universe is also a form of worshipping.

Do you believe I exist?
Do you worship me?

One thing that cannot be denied by anything is that you exist right now.

What is there to believe or worship?

I think the anonymous author of The Cloud said it best.

Reflex wrote:Lacewing, I know that I am not the target of your hate and vitriol. What's your real problem? Who or what are you really lashing out at?

Look at yourself, and stop projecting.

Immanuel Can wrote:Answer: because men don't know God, and because prejudice is easier than knowledge, mockery is easier than reason, self-satisfaction is more pleasant than self-examination, mutual congratulation is more companionable than the lone quest for truth, and men love darkness rather than the Light. (John 3:19).

Those are the reasons.

Because men are scared of life and death, and because prejudice is easier than knowledge, mockery is easier than reason, self-satisfaction is more pleasant than self-examination, mutual congratulation is more companionable than the lone quest for truth, they invent God to salve their childish fear in the face of death, rather than go through the labour of science and truth.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Because men are scared of life and death, and because prejudice is easier than knowledge, mockery is easier than reason, self-satisfaction is more pleasant than self-examination, mutual congratulation is more companionable than the lone quest for truth, they invent God to salve their childish fear in the face of death, rather than go through the labour of science and truth.

You've got it the wrong way round. You are so ignorant of truth.

Men invent themselves. Not a God.

Isn't Science also delving into the nature of reality to gain a deeper experiential understanding of who we are. Same goal, different path that's all.

Isn't it enough to know we exist, that we are aware right now without doubt or error. And that this experiential knowing is effortless, no labour required to be what you already are.

But what exactly are you?

What you are is unknown to you, you don't know what you are only that you are. But what can unknowing do with that? ...I know said the unknowing, I will name myself I...and the unknowing said, ah, now I know what I am....???????????

For the sake of human communication the I has to exist. I have to invent myself as something other than what I am already.

Who is there to invent a God without first inventing the idea of a Self who can invent God. Did Hobbes' Choice make itself?

You know yourself to exist as a body as evidenced, but did you make that body? who invented your body that can invent a God?

Hmm..Can you see the dilemma?

If you had never invented, or known yourself, who would there be to be scared of life and death?