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Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 3:20 pm
by ReliStuPhD
thedoc wrote:I would agree with Leo here, it would depend on how much effort a person has put into being whatever they claim to be. Many people adopt a label by default, not because they have put any effort into what they believe about God. A few people put a lot of effort into the decision and then have strong opinions on it.
Certainly so, but that doesn't mean we change what the word means because of an error (we might eventually, of course). If you run across a believer in Christ, risen, who reads the Bible daily, goes to a local Baptist church, and takes a opinion quarterly, but calls himself a Muslim, do you ten change what "Muslim" means? Extreme example, but it makes the point. For the time being, at least, if it walks like a duck and quacks like duck...

So yes, following's Leo's response, I'll happily assent to the proposition that non-theists regularly misuse the term. I'll certainly be careful not to assume that a self-identified atheist is anything other than a non-theist until I've had to time chat with them. But as for the word, I'll continue using it properly: to describe one who does not belief in the existence of God/gods. After all, we have to have standards, no? :)

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:00 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:I can't agree with this or with any of the rest of your post if we're talking about the word "atheist" as it is applied in the common usage. The vast majority of people who would so define themselves would have scarcely ever given the matter any thought, any more than most theists have ever given the matter any thought.
In that case, what we're talking about is the fact that many people misuse the word, not that the word means something other than what it, well, means. You've got something of an uphill climb to get past etymology and usage by those who aren't confused ok the term. Atheist is a clear descriptor with a long history of use that is little-changed to this day. But I can certainly agree wth your assertion that many atheists don't understand the word well enough to know that it does not apply to them. I agree that apatheism is more descriptive.

Thanks for the response.
This confirms exactly that RelStuPhD wants an nice convenient caricature to use to bash atheists over the head.
Black and white thinking.
Well shit I do not have to conform to YOUR definition of "atheist"
If I want to call myself an atheist I'll do so in my own terms.

If you can think out of the black and white box for a moment. I am an atheist. ~I have a range of things I accept as true - but these could be so regardless of my atheism. I can also be a pedestrian, and a car driver, a student and a teacher, a son and a father. All these attracts facts about me that make it stupid to point to a single word have have me comply with a definition of that word.
Given my self identification as an atheist, this can ONLY MEAN that i am NOTa THEIST.

And I Challenge RelStuPhD or anyone else that wants to caricature me, what exactly am I supposed to believe?

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:07 pm
by Melchior
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:I can't agree with this or with any of the rest of your post if we're talking about the word "atheist" as it is applied in the common usage. The vast majority of people who would so define themselves would have scarcely ever given the matter any thought, any more than most theists have ever given the matter any thought.
In that case, what we're talking about is the fact that many people misuse the word, not that the word means something other than what it, well, means. You've got something of an uphill climb to get past etymology and usage by those who aren't confused ok the term. Atheist is a clear descriptor with a long history of use that is little-changed to this day. But I can certainly agree wth your assertion that many atheists don't understand the word well enough to know that it does not apply to them. I agree that apatheism is more descriptive.

Thanks for the response.
An 'atheist' is someone who does not believe in God or gods, or even have the concept.

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:46 pm
by henry quirk
Mentioned up-thread I'd written sumthin' for another forum...couldn't recall 'where' it was...found it.

-----

If 'god' exists then I can only (off the top of my head) conclude...

(1) It's 'all powerful' but (for some reason) chooses not to involve itself in the world (I see no evidence of divine intervention in the world...do you?).

Since 'god' is not involved: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who sits back and does nothing but play voyeur (or, maybe, is off doing something else entirely).


(2) It's not 'all powerful' and -- for that reason -- can't do anything in the world.

Since 'god' is limited: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who may want to intervene but is incapable.


(3) It's so alien in the way it thinks (in agenda, goal, purpose, etc.) its action in the world is incomprehensible and indistinguishable from natural occurrence.

Since 'god' is an alien: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who is so far removed from me I can't hope to frame an entreaty it could even understand.


(4) It's a tricksy, manipulative, jackass playing with the world like my nephew does a June bug.

Since 'god' is a fucker: I'm on my own. Only good reason to spend time thinking about 'god' (in this case) is to figure out how to fly under its radar.


Of course: there may be no 'god'...in which case: I'm on my own...*shrug*

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 5:50 pm
by ReliStuPhD
Melchior wrote:An 'atheist' is someone who does not believe in God or gods, or even have the concept.
Certainly the first part. As for not even having a concept, I'm a bit less convinced, but I can't think of a particularly strong objection. I wonder who would qualify, though? Babies are about the only thing I can think of, but then they're "a-everything" until their parents teach them. So "a-science," and so on.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:06 pm
by ReliStuPhD
Hobbes' Choice wrote:This confirms exactly that RelStuPhD wants an nice convenient caricature to use to bash atheists over the head.
Black and white thinking.
Well shit I do not have to conform to YOUR definition of "atheist"
If I want to call myself an atheist I'll do so in my own terms.

If you can think out of the black and white box for a moment. I am an atheist. ~I have a range of things I accept as true - but these could be so regardless of my atheism. I can also be a pedestrian, and a car driver, a student and a teacher, a son and a father. All these attracts facts about me that make it stupid to point to a single word have have me comply with a definition of that word.
Given my self identification as an atheist, this can ONLY MEAN that i am NOTa THEIST.

And I Challenge RelStuPhD or anyone else that wants to caricature me, what exactly am I supposed to believe?
Not if you're going to use the label "atheist" accurately. "Atheist" simply means not believing in God/gods. Why you consider that to be a caricature is beyond me, though I've come to expect that sort of irrational response from you. I'm beginning to think you're simply incapable of following even the simplest of arguments.

Well, back to the ignore list. I'll check back in a month to see if you've learned to do anything other than engage in "convenient caricatures." (Such a delicious irony, by the way. You really don't see that you're the only one doing that, do you?)

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:13 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:This confirms exactly that RelStuPhD wants an nice convenient caricature to use to bash atheists over the head.
Black and white thinking.
Well shit I do not have to conform to YOUR definition of "atheist"
If I want to call myself an atheist I'll do so in my own terms.

If you can think out of the black and white box for a moment. I am an atheist. ~I have a range of things I accept as true - but these could be so regardless of my atheism. I can also be a pedestrian, and a car driver, a student and a teacher, a son and a father. All these attracts facts about me that make it stupid to point to a single word have have me comply with a definition of that word.
Given my self identification as an atheist, this can ONLY MEAN that i am NOTa THEIST.

And I Challenge RelStuPhD or anyone else that wants to caricature me, what exactly am I supposed to believe?
Not if you're going to use the label "atheist" accurately. "Atheist" simply means not believing in God/gods. Why you consider that to be a caricature is beyond me, though I've come to expect that sort of irrational response from you. I'm beginning to think you're simply incapable of following even the simplest of arguments.

Well, back to the ignore list. I'll check back in a month to see if you've learned to do anything other than engage in "convenient caricatures." (Such a delicious irony, by the way. You really don't see that you're the only one doing that, do you?)
Thanks for finally accepting my view, and making your thread a mockery. Now ...Run away.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:23 pm
by Melchior
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Melchior wrote:An 'atheist' is someone who does not believe in God or gods, or even have the concept.
Certainly the first part. As for not even having a concept, I'm a bit less convinced, but I can't think of a particularly strong objection. I wonder who would qualify, though? Babies are about the only thing I can think of, but then they're "a-everything" until their parents teach them. So "a-science," and so on.
Certainly some peoples are more 'primitive', and our notion of religion and theirs would be very different. For many primitive peoples, 'unseen forces' are behind everything. For us to call this some sort of 'theology' would be a mistake.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 7:03 pm
by ReliStuPhD
Melchior wrote:Certainly some peoples are more 'primitive', and our notion of religion and theirs would be very different. For many primitive peoples, 'unseen forces' are behind everything. For us to call this some sort of 'theology' would be a mistake.
Agreed. At the same time, if they consider those forces to be supernatural, that would constitute a belief qualitatively different than that of the atheist, no? Certainly some primitive "religions" have seen these forces as part of the natural order, but it seems that even then the atheist wants to discount that as superstition rather than an accurate understanding of the world around us. Which is to say, those "unseen forces" are, for the atheist, Gravity, magnetism, etc, rather than ancestral spirits or tree sprites.

And yes, I do agree "religion" is a difficult notion to nail down with a high degree of certainty but, at least academically, there is a distinction between the supernatural and the cultural aspects of religion, with the former being the important piece in evaluating atheism. An "atheist Muslim" is not something we necessarily have an issue with, so long as we're speaking culturally.

I guess my point is that the term "atheist" is pretty clearly defined in both common usage and etymology. And while I don't like when it's used to disparage someone, it seems to me that, as a descriptor, there's really very little question as to what viewpoint it describes, even if people self-label incorrectly. I'm certainly amenable to other terms to describe the various levels of not believing in a personal God.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 7:06 pm
by Melchior
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Melchior wrote:Certainly some peoples are more 'primitive', and our notion of religion and theirs would be very different. For many primitive peoples, 'unseen forces' are behind everything. For us to call this some sort of 'theology' would be a mistake.
Agreed. At the same time, if they consider those forces to be supernatural, that would constitute a belief qualitatively different than that of the atheist, no? Certainly some primitive "religions" have seen these forces as part of the natural order, but it seems that even then the atheist wants to discount that as superstition rather than an accurate understanding of the world around us. Which is to say, those "unseen forces" are, for the atheist, Gravity, magnetism, etc, rather than ancestral spirits or tree sprites.

And yes, I do agree "religion" is a difficult notion to nail down with a high degree of certainty but, at least academically, there is a distinction between the supernatural and the cultural aspects of religion, with the former being the important piece in evaluating atheism. An "atheist Muslim" is not something we necessarily have an issue with, so long as we're speaking culturally.

I guess my point is that the term "atheist" is pretty clearly defined in both common usage and etymology. And while I don't like when it's used to disparage someone, it seems to me that, as a descriptor, there's really very little question as to what viewpoint it describes, even if people self-label incorrectly. I'm certainly amenable to other terms to describe the various levels of not believing in a personal God.
I'm not sure they would distinguish between 'natural' and 'supernatural' with the degree of coherence that we might. I'm not an expert on 'primitive' religions.

Speaking of primitive people, check this out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... sland.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_people

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 8:12 pm
by ReliStuPhD
Melchior wrote:I'm not sure they would distinguish between 'natural' and 'supernatural' with the degree of coherence that we might. I'm not an expert on 'primitive' religions.
Yes, it's a good point, and the Sentinelese certainly help to illustrate your point. So I guess the degree to which we would consider them "atheist" would have to do with the degree to which they had beliefs in what we might reasonably call gods.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:12 pm
by Melchior
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Melchior wrote:I'm not sure they would distinguish between 'natural' and 'supernatural' with the degree of coherence that we might. I'm not an expert on 'primitive' religions.
Yes, it's a good point, and the Sentinelese certainly help to illustrate your point. So I guess the degree to which we would consider them "atheist" would have to do with the degree to which they had beliefs in what we might reasonably call gods.
Yes, and since hardly anybody goes there and survives, their culture will remain largely unknown till such time as that changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaPYwlXOTzQ

https://youtu.be/0Kf9ZF1NLXQ

These people have lived in total isolation for 60,000 years, and so they would represent a culture utterly unlike anything we know.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:33 pm
by ReliStuPhD
Melchior wrote:Yes, and since hardly anybody goes there and survives, their culture will remain largely unknown till such time as that changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaPYwlXOTzQ

https://youtu.be/0Kf9ZF1NLXQ

These people have lived in total isolation for 60,000 years, and so they would represent a culture utterly unlike anything we know.
Yeah. And as much as the academic in me wants to know how their culture informs/challenges our own understandings of society, religion, culture, etc, I hope we just leave well enough alone and let them go about their business. Some questions shouldn't be answered at the cost of destroying a society. Prime Directive, etc, etc, etc.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:55 pm
by Melchior
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Melchior wrote:Yes, and since hardly anybody goes there and survives, their culture will remain largely unknown till such time as that changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaPYwlXOTzQ

https://youtu.be/0Kf9ZF1NLXQ

These people have lived in total isolation for 60,000 years, and so they would represent a culture utterly unlike anything we know.
Yeah. And as much as the academic in me wants to know how their culture informs/challenges our own understandings of society, religion, culture, etc, I hope we just leave well enough alone and let them go about their business. Some questions shouldn't be answered at the cost of destroying a society. Prime Directive, etc, etc, etc.
From what I understand, they could be wiped out by diseases to which we are immune and they are not. On the other hand, their lives must be rather rough. But their attitudes must be typical of people of 60,000 years ago, too. The hostility to foreigners/strangers, for instance. What could foreigners/strangers want? Certainly nothing good! And of course, they could bring diseases...we must give them credit for still being alive.

Re: Do atheists read the primary sources?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 1:31 pm
by Lawrence Crocker
It is useful to distinguish, as the debate between atheists and theists only rarely does, between atheism and anti-religion-ism. One of the defects of the “New Atheism” is that it tends to conflate the two and encourages us to do the same.

There are a few theists who believe that all religions are historically, sociologically, and politically terrible. There are some atheists who are indifferent to the existence of religions, and even some think there are some good religions. Left leaning atheists often have a soft spot for the Quakers, the social gospel Protestants, the liberation theology movement, and the current Pope. Right wing atheists might have a similar fondness for the Puritans (the Bradford free enterprise strain, not the communalists) and the preachers of the Gospel of Prosperity.

(There is some irony in the fact that a U.S. politician named after an outspoken atheist has managed to cobble together that atheist’s free market (or more accurately pro-rich-people) economics with social policies dictated by “the word of God.”)

I, myself, think the existence of God very unlikely, (See http://www.LawrenceCrocker.blgspot.com, post 9/11/14) I do, however, believe that the world is a better place because of the Quakers, among others. I also find the occasional Methodist or Anglican or Unitarian service a good way to exercise my hope that there might, despite the evidence, be a powerful God who is concerned about us. (For this more generally see http://www.LawrenceCrocker.blgspot.com, post 5/5/15.)

To return to the specifics of this thread , to get to the most plausible theory on the question of the existence of the theists’ God, I would think we wouldn’t spend much time with the average atheist or most atheists any more than we would with the average Muslim, Moravian, or Methodist.

Better for the atheist to read Anselm, Aquinas, Plantinga, and Alston.

Reading the scriptures, insofar as it bears on the existence of God, as distinguished from the merits of the specific religion, would be relevant primarily in one of three ways. The narrative of the scripture might just seem so objectively plausible as to convert the atheist or, more frequently reported, it might “speak to her heart.” The third alternative requires some fairly sophisticated historiography as the atheist confronts the argument that, e.g. the resurrection of Jesus must have happened because there is so much purportedly independent sightings of a living Jesus after his crucifixion.

Although there are some reported exceptions, none of these approaches to scripture seems to have a high success rate with sophisticated atheists. (It is also worth noting that a few atheists have read scripture in the original. This was more common when an educated person was expected to know Greek and Latin, and, optionally, Hebrew. There is, however, at least one notable contemporary, Bart Ehrman, whose reading of the Bible in the original, and in the very earliest texts, seems to have had a negative effect on his antecedent theism.)

Whom should the theist read if he wants seriously to come to grips with atheism? Atheism does not have its Aquinas figure, as is probably inevitable for a negative thesis. Best to read the scholarly criticisms of the better theistic arguments, i.e. the responses to Anselm (starting with Guanilo but maybe including something published last week), and the responses to Aquinas, Plantinga, and Alston.

Not as good an approach, but still not bad, is for the theist to come to terms with the arguments of Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris, the most philosophically sophisticated of the “New Atheists.” Better yet would be to read, Mackie, or Sinnott-Armstrong.