Philosophy Now Forum

Arising_uk wrote:Not bad chaz. Quite liked the fecundity sculptures as well, yours or images of the real thing?

That was my first sculpture. It is a more perky version of the Willandorf Venus.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6F9BS8e0Qqo/T ... endorf.jpg

I put another pic on just now, if you want to see my Russell.

I'm surprised you got to see them - I thought only "friends would be able to see them.
I suppose that means the whole bloody world can see them now!

Your info is not shared but your picture albums are open.

You can use your facebook privacy panel to change this if you wish,

Arising_uk wrote:Your info is not shared but your picture albums are open.

You can use your facebook privacy panel to change this if you wish,

Ta.

Thanks for making these photos available, Chaz. I enjoyed seeing your sculpture -- well done!

Very good. I liked them a lot.

Thanks. It has been a real eye opener to me. At age nearly 52 I never imagined I had an untapped skill.
I appreciate your remarks.

I've got a Nietszche on the way. I'l post it when I am done.

Well Done Chaz. I like the healthy looking Socrates and the Venus.

Have you ever seen this? Perhaps a Neanderthal attempt to preserve the image of a leader - perhaps with some sort of a wise brain.

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=cotar ... 29,r:0,s:0

I managed to get a painting off the easel at the end of last year, despite a demanding new job. It adds a lot to one's sense of fulfillment to be able to knock off a few creative works as one struggles along.

Cheers mate.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Bernard wrote:Well Done Chaz. I like the healthy looking Socrates and the Venus.

Have you ever seen this? Perhaps a Neanderthal attempt to preserve the image of a leader - perhaps with some sort of a wise brain.

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=cotar ... 29,r:0,s:0

I managed to get a painting off the easel at the end of last year, despite a demanding new job. It adds a lot to one's sense of fulfillment to be able to knock off a few creative works as one struggles along.

Cheers mate.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Thanks for the link. I've not seen it before.
Speaking as an archaeologist with some experience of working flint my first reaction to the object is that the "face" is natural or accidental. Flint cannot be 'sculpted', the only way you can work flint is by pressure and percussion. In other words you can crush the edges to make them sharp or knock off flakes, which usually split the piece.
The object could be the result of flaking with the "eyes' appearing accidentally from trying to work a bone tool with the flint. However, if it was found in a Mousterian context it may well have been recognised as a face by the Neanderthal maker and curated as such. Face recognition is a very deep and fundamental skill in all higher mammals. Paul Bahn's quote needs to be read carefully with the emphasis on "should" rather than "does", and the fuller context of his comments need to be seen. But otherwise he is a thoughtful and reliable archeologist.
This would be the only example of a Neanderthal object d'art.
But I would have to hold the object in my hands to know for sure.

I love your painting. Is it in oil or acrylic? It's well observed and painstakingly executed. I wish I could see the figures more clearly. Well done.

Bernard wrote:I managed to get a painting off the easel at the end of last year, despite a demanding new job. It adds a lot to one's sense of fulfillment to be able to knock off a few creative works as one struggles along.

Cheers mate.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

I love the painting.

Thanks for the kind comments on the painting John and Chaz. I'll take some more detailed pics of the figures - I don't consider the figure grouping (including the dog) as that successful. They were sort of afterthoughts to the tress - superimpositions. The painting is done in oils using some simple glazing techniques.

Your comments on the mask are very interesting. It does appear as an accident, or a 'happen-stance' one rainy day in the cave. Yet there is a definite ring of intentionality to it - even if almost childish - that is very intriguing. Would it even be attributable to a sort of early shamanism? When one considers that homonid tool use dates back over two million years this could be seen, in a way-out sense, as a result of modern technology, perhaps even modern art. It can be all quite relative. There is no doubt, I think, that Neanderthal man was once the peak of evolution on earth, how intelligent he/she was is a fascinating question in light of a piece like this.

At first its pretty difficult to see it as an accident: a tool perhaps that happened to have a bone caught in it by water action - or perhaps the bone was wedged in it simply for some practical application in hunting or cleaving meat. These are possibilities that shouldn't be entirely discounted.

Not sure what hominid is responsible for http://web.me.com/kbolman/Africa/2Blombos_Cave.html

chaz wyman wrote:

Bernard wrote:Well Done Chaz. I like the healthy looking Socrates and the Venus.

Have you ever seen this? Perhaps a Neanderthal attempt to preserve the image of a leader - perhaps with some sort of a wise brain.

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=cotar ... 29,r:0,s:0

I managed to get a painting off the easel at the end of last year, despite a demanding new job. It adds a lot to one's sense of fulfillment to be able to knock off a few creative works as one struggles along.

Cheers mate.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Thanks for the link. I've not seen it before.
Speaking as an archaeologist with some experience of working flint my first reaction to the object is that the "face" is natural or accidental. Flint cannot be 'sculpted', the only way you can work flint is by pressure and percussion. In other words you can crush the edges to make them sharp or knock off flakes, which usually split the piece.
The object could be the result of flaking with the "eyes' appearing accidentally from trying to work a bone tool with the flint. However, if it was found in a Mousterian context it may well have been recognised as a face by the Neanderthal maker and curated as such. Face recognition is a very deep and fundamental skill in all higher mammals. Paul Bahn's quote needs to be read carefully with the emphasis on "should" rather than "does", and the fuller context of his comments need to be seen. But otherwise he is a thoughtful and reliable archeologist.
This would be the only example of a Neanderthal object d'art.
But I would have to hold the object in my hands to know for sure.

I love your painting. Is it in oil or acrylic? It's well observed and painstakingly executed. I wish I could see the figures more clearly. Well done.

As for the Blombos find. There is a far better interpretation than "tally" marks.
It is very unlikely that anyone was counting 75K years ago enough to have to record them.
There is a far more convincing and interesting interpretation concerning geometric patterns.

These are the forms you see if you are taking drugs, or in a trance state from dance or other ritual, or from sensory deprivation of the sort you get if you spend a long time in a cave.

Here's an extract from an essay I wrote a while ago. (Sorry I can't link the images)


Leroi-Gourhan's categories may be considered to be have a direct analogue with Ronald Siegel's three stages of trance: entoptic(pure geometric), construals (geometric figurative) and Iconics(synthetic figurative). Although such an idea would require more work it could demonstrate some fundamental propositions in art. In a natural landscape there are so few straight lines that it could be said that nature abores clean edges (exceptions, rock strata, horizons). The occurance of lines and geometric shapes in so called "primitive art" requires explanation which is provided by entoptic theory. This holds that geometric shapes derive from the fundamental neurophysiological structure of the visual cortex. These shapes can be "seen" at times when the normal visual work of the nervous system is interrupted such as: concussion, under the influence of drugs, extended periods of visual depravation, and trance states. Such shapes are universal and relate to background neural activity. The appearance of geometric shapes and dots may indicate any of the above activities and may help understand the human activity of geometry and building. Of particular interest would be dance or drug induced states of trance involved in shamanistic ritual activity proposed by many of those involved in palaeo-art studies.


Here's a link that might help.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenu ... toptic.htm

As for the Blombos find. There is a far better interpretation than "tally" marks.
It is very unlikely that anyone was counting 75K years ago enough to have to record them.
There is a far more convincing and interesting interpretation concerning geometric patterns.

These are the forms you see if you are taking drugs, or in a trance state from dance or other ritual, or from sensory deprivation of the sort you get if you spend a long time in a cave.

Here's an extract from an essay I wrote a while ago. (Sorry I can't link the images)


Leroi-Gourhan's categories may be considered to be have a direct analogue with Ronald Siegel's three stages of trance: entoptic(pure geometric), construals (geometric figurative) and Iconics(synthetic figurative). Although such an idea would require more work it could demonstrate some fundamental propositions in art. In a natural landscape there are so few straight lines that it could be said that nature abores clean edges (exceptions, rock strata, horizons). The occurance of lines and geometric shapes in so called "primitive art" requires explanation which is provided by entoptic theory. This holds that geometric shapes derive from the fundamental neurophysiological structure of the visual cortex. These shapes can be "seen" at times when the normal visual work of the nervous system is interrupted such as: concussion, under the influence of drugs, extended periods of visual depravation, and trance states. Such shapes are universal and relate to background neural activity. The appearance of geometric shapes and dots may indicate any of the above activities and may help understand the human activity of geometry and building. Of particular interest would be dance or drug induced states of trance involved in shamanistic ritual activity proposed by many of those involved in palaeo-art studies.


Here's a link that might help.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenu ... toptic.htm

yes I thought that calculus interpretation of Blombus (love that word) was too much of a stretch. I like your idea about it better.

Link to details of that painting: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... e3b418bd6d

Thanks and congratulations to Chaz and Bernard! Both thinkers and artists. You've both made a fine contribution to this thread. And it appears to me that both of you are creating the things you like and liking the things you create, and neither of you seem to face any kind of "dilemma".

Chaz, thanks for your link to Entopic Images and its reference to Hildegard of Bingen. About a dozen years ago there was a revival in interest for another artistic side of her -- her music. I got caught up in the enthusiasm, attended a concert, and own a couple of CDs of her works.

My vote for the best sculptor.

Ron Mueck