Philosophy Now Forum

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote:In case you haven't figured it out yet, there is no heaven or hell, or maybe you're mentally still living in the Stone Age.

I'm not saying there is.
Maybe you should get some READING skills?

I'm talking about anybody on this thread.

Greatest I am wrote:

..nameless.. wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:What is the purpose of an everlasting punishment in hell?

The purpose of the threat of Hell is the fascist/authoritarian means of keeping the 'rednecks' behavin' properly (more or less)!

Yes. Quite human to use the carrot and stick mentality.

Yes indeedy, at the moment...

You would think that a God could do better than humans.

Now there's a topic that might be interesting to discuss.
'Perspective' has much to do with whatever you might mean by "better".

Then again, we did create him in our image.

True!

Just remember that;

"For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!" - The First Law of Soul Dynamics

... other Perspective that is equally true!


"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense." -Robert Anton Wilson

Regards
DL

peace

Greatest I am wrote:God has nothing to do with the bible.

You assume the existence of a 'God', ok, I'll go along for the ride.
Assuming a God, that God must necessarily have 'God-like characteristics', be One with God's definition, like us all. An apple is that which fits the definition of an apple, no?
One of the most commonly accepted definitions of God, apparently, is the descriptive term 'Omni-'.
'Omni-' means all existence, all Reality, all Truth...
All loving, all hating, all judgment, all forgiveness.... and everything and all in between the extremes; all peaceful and all violent... ALL, 'Omni-', One Omni- 'Self!'!

Another definition is that God is 'Consciousness', which seems to have support from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics;
"Consciousness is the ground of all being!"

So, where in existence, anywhere, anytime, is not this God that you are willing to posit?
God is as much in the Bible as in your little toe or church or George Bush's brain or...
'God' is that which is perceived!
Every moment a moment of 'Self!'!(God) Knowledge!

No sane God would.

That would be a matter of Perspective, no? 'Sanity' or 'insanity' really is in the eye of the beholder!
Two Perspectives of the same One Reality.

You imply that this God that you posited is 'insane'.
That is true! God IS insane!

You also posit that God is 'sane' by your inclusion.
Yes, God is sane also!

We are back to Omni again. All sanity, all insanity, all inclusive!
One Omni- 'Self!'!
Capisce'?

..nameless.. wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:God has nothing to do with the bible.

You assume the existence of a 'God', ok,

No Way.


I'll go along for the ride.
Assuming a God, that God must necessarily have 'God-like characteristics', be One with God's definition, like us all. An apple is that which fits the definition of an apple, no?
One of the most commonly accepted definitions of God, apparently, is the descriptive term 'Omni-'.
'Omni-' means all existence, all Reality, all Truth...
All loving, all hating, all judgment, all forgiveness.... and everything and all in between the extremes; all peaceful and all violent... ALL, 'Omni-', One Omni- 'Self!'!

Another definition is that God is 'Consciousness', which seems to have support from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics;
"Consciousness is the ground of all being!"

So, where in existence, anywhere, anytime, is not this God that you are willing to posit?
God is as much in the Bible as in your little toe or church or George Bush's brain or...
'God' is that which is perceived!
Every moment a moment of 'Self!'!(God) Knowledge!

All I said was that the Bible had nothing to do with God, to mean that it is a man made book.



No sane God would.

~~~ That would be a matter of Perspective, no? 'Sanity' or 'insanity' really is in the eye of the beholder!
Two Perspectives of the same One Reality.

You imply that this God that you posited is 'insane'.
That is true! God IS insane!

You also posit that God is 'sane' by your inclusion.
Yes, God is sane also!

We are back to Omni again. All sanity, all insanity, all inclusive!
One Omni- 'Self!'!
Capisce'?

PS I don't buy your reasoning.

..nameless.. wrote:

You would think that a God could do better than humans.

Now there's a topic that might be interesting to discuss.
'Perspective' has much to do with whatever you might mean by "better".

Actually, I have discussed that with some theists and it goes nowhere.
They admit that God is less moral than man but then says that God created us and can do whatever he likes, moral or nor because he is God and we just do not understand his mysterious ways.

They always seem to go hide behind their fantasy, miracles and magic.
None of it proven or logical of course.

Regards
DL

..nameless.. wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:God has nothing to do with the bible.

You assume the existence of a 'God', ok, I'll go along for the ride.
Assuming a God, that God must necessarily have 'God-like characteristics', be One with God's definition, like us all. An apple is that which fits the definition of an apple, no?
One of the most commonly accepted definitions of God, apparently, is the descriptive term 'Omni-'.
'Omni-' means all existence, all Reality, all Truth...
All loving, all hating, all judgment, all forgiveness.... and everything and all in between the extremes; all peaceful and all violent... ALL, 'Omni-', One Omni- 'Self!'!

Another definition is that God is 'Consciousness', which seems to have support from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics;
"Consciousness is the ground of all being!"

So, where in existence, anywhere, anytime, is not this God that you are willing to posit?
God is as much in the Bible as in your little toe or church or George Bush's brain or...
'God' is that which is perceived!
Every moment a moment of 'Self!'!(God) Knowledge!


No sane God would.

~~~ That would be a matter of Perspective, no? 'Sanity' or 'insanity' really is in the eye of the beholder!
Two Perspectives of the same One Reality.

You imply that this God that you posited is 'insane'.
That is true! God IS insane!

You also posit that God is 'sane' by your inclusion.
Yes, God is sane also!

We are back to Omni again. All sanity, all insanity, all inclusive!
One Omni- 'Self!'!
Capisce'?

Is there a way to interpret or judge someone as sane when it is said that they had their son murdered when there was no need to?
Find me one person who would call that sanity.
He too would be insane.

I assume their is a bible type God only for purposes of discussion.

I am not an atheist thanks to my own apotheosis but it is not the God as described in scriptures.


The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
During my apotheosis,
My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

Dignifying your delusion with the word apotheosis does not make it real.

Greatest I am wrote: Actually, I have discussed that with some theists and it goes nowhere.
They admit that God is less moral than man but then says that God created us and can do whatever he likes, moral or nor because he is God and we just do not understand his mysterious ways.

Obviously the theist or two with which you have spoken were neither knowledgable or able at philosophy.
Not all theists go with the 'creation' belief.
And that they differentiate between us and God is simply dualistic/egoic thought. We are One!

They always seem to go hide behind their fantasy, miracles and magic.
None of it proven or logical of course.

'There is more in Heaven and Hell than can fit into your pholosophy!'
You can disregard and discount that which you do not perceive/understand, even though it is true and real, to your own detriment.
Science and philosophy do not "prove" anything! That is a matter of what YOU consider as proof, a 'belief', religion! Your insistance on scientific or philosophical (this is a philosophy site) 'proof' is an error.
Someone's 'proof' of a God might be a small rock by the wayside! Who are you to say that what is 'proof' for you must be Universally applicable?
And 'logic' is severely limited in the extent of the Reality that it can define!
Interesting read;
Limits of Logic in the Growth of Knowledge
An essay by Dr. Terry Halwes
http://www.dharma-haven.org/science/limits-of-logic.htm

"If you can master nonsense as well as you have already mastered sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity!
From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings.
He becomes free to play order games and change them at will.
He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it.
He becomes free to play neither or both.
And, as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with goodwill in his soul and love in his being.
And when a man becomes free, then mankind will become free.
May you be free of the curse of Greyface!
May the goddess put twinkle in your eyes.
May you have the wisdom of a sage and the innocence of a child.
Hail Eris!"
-Malaclypse the Younger

What you perceive is true and real, can you not accept that the same is true for other Perspectives as well?

Greatest I am wrote:I assume their is a bible type God only for purposes of discussion.

The bible speaks of the same god as everyone else! It is a matter of differrent perspectives, as is everyone who reads it.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist. I am not an atheist thanks to my own apotheosis but it is not the God as described in scriptures.

"God cannot know himself without me." - Meister Eckhart

"The eye by which I see God is the same as the eye by which God sees me. My eye and God's eye are one and the same." - Meister Eckhart

"All things are simply God to thee who seest only God in all things. Like one who looks long at the sun, he encounters the sun in whatever he afterwards looks at. If this is lacking, this looking for and seeing God in all and sundry, then thou lackest this birth." - Meister Eckhart

"What a man loves, he is. If he loves a stone he is that stone, if he loves a person he is that person, if he loves God - nay, I durst not say more; were I to say, he is God, he might stone me. I do but teach you the scriptures." - Meister Eckhart

If your 'god' is not the god of scriptures (others), the limitation of vision is your's! Again, does Omni mean nothing to you?

Really? This all applies to you??;

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apotheosis
Noun

apotheosis (plural apotheoses)

1 The fact or action of becoming a god; deification.  
2 Glorification, exaltation; crediting someone with extraordinary power or status.
3 A glorified example or ideal; the apex or pinnacle (of a concept or belief).  
4 Loosely, release from earthly life, ascension to heaven; death.

Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

Everyone does!
All he is saying is as I have said; we all see Reality from different unique Perspectives! Yes, you see black and I see white and she sees magenta! It has become obsolete to argue who is 'right', who's perceptions are 'true'! It is ALL True!!!The bible, or whatever, is black AND white AND majenta...

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good.

Both True! Again, ponder 'Omni'!
Besides, all value, all 'good' and 'evil' exist in the (eye of) the beholder (perceiver)!
About 'morality';
From a religious Perspective (and a dictionary), 'morality' is judging other people/stuff as 'good' or 'bad/evil'!
As a Xtian (or any other religion), we are warned against judging others;
"Judge not lest you be judged!"
Such is the sin of 'pride'!
'Pride' is the only sin (from which all others spring), yet the hypocrites flaunt their practices, joyfully, proudly, in the face of god!

You are told that;
"If you judge, judge with righteous judgment!"
And goes on to say that;
"None are righteous, no not one!"

Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.

That's quite the judgmental ego (sin of Pride) that you seem to be blithely displaying?
Where does 'humility' enter your understanding?
Calling others names of derision.. Do all Gnostic (where's your Gnosis Gnow?) Xtians behave so? What is the point of your 'spiritual practice' if you simply wallow in the same filth as everyone else? What's the point? Aren't you supposed to be known by your love?
Yeah, 'us vs them'... true Gnosis realizes the obsolescence of such schizophrenic thinking! Every cult/religion has the same us vs them problem. Those days are at an end! We are WE! One Omni- 'Self!'!

This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

Again, 'morality' is a sin!

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed

Everyone's Perspective is 'confirmed'/true! Your's also!
'Confirmed' by whom?

and I was chastised to think more demographically.

And that means?

What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

There is One Consciousness. Perhaps you refer to this?
How can you 'find' that which you are?
Are you different/distinct from Consciousness?

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.

Did I not just hear you demanding 'proof' from 'them', yet you are, somehow, exempt?
"That is always the way with apotheosis." sounds awfully close to;
""God's ways are not for us to understand!"
or
"It's a miracle!"
...of which you were being quite dismissive a few moments ago when the Xtian says it...
Goose and gander thing?
Is the Xtian hypocrisy extant throughout all the sects and branches of Xtianity?

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it.

You seem to have left the world of science and philosophy for the land of unfounded 'beliefs'. God only helps out special people (chosen)? Baptized? Catholics? Moslem? Where have I heard that before?
Oh, sorry, only your brand of 'belief', the 'Gnostic'? (and I am not hearing much in the way of 'spiritual Gnosis' here... just the same old egoic "I've got it and you don't, us vs them... obsolete egoic crap!)

Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

The next evolutionary step is happening as we speak. The world will be 'enlightened' and all will know (Gnosis) that We are All One Omni- 'Self!'!

Rather than 'judge' (who? Self?) we understand our Unity, Oneness, and that everything exists! Everythng is Real!
Everything is True!
No one gets marginalized and dismissed (like your 'sheeple')!
We are turning from schizo-sapiens into homo-novus, New Man! We are entering what will be called the Golden Age of Consciousness! These days will be taught as the Dark Ages, and it will be 'unbelievable'!

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

You just leave me stunned with your 'religious pretentions' while gladly willing to burn the witches!
Can't you even squeeze the tiniest bit of live and let live, the smallest but of love for your brothers and sisters and environment?
I see no difference between you and any other Xtian! I see the same hypocrisy, the same vain pride, the same willingness to judge others and commit another Holocaust or Inquisition or Crusades...
Sorry to have to p**** at your ego, but learning and understanding Truth is always painful!
There is no blessing without pain!

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe

Everyone with 'beliefs' are happy to 'share them' (proselytize)!
'Beliefs' are like viruses, they must survive at all costs, any atrocity (strongly held beliefs), and propagate ('share', often at sword-point)!

but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do,

And you speak for all mankind and nature?
There are many who find God relevent! You casually dismiss us? That appears to be another act of ignorance/vanity, my friend.

and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point.

Perhaps that discussion has an end point for you, a point that you simply are not willing to examine. But as long as there is thought of 'morality' being 'subjective, and objective and environmental... there will be discussion!
The New Man, hono-novus, knows that it is all True! That 'morality' is both objective and subjective and environmental and comes from a can and whatever anyone happens to perceive!
ALL True!

The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion.

So, you are saying that Gnosticism is an ineffectual path? One that goes, basically, nowhere? No pie in the sky? No true Gnosis? No mystical experience? Perhaps not for you, perhaps not yet?
As far as I know, ALL PATHS lead, eventually, to the One Omni- 'Self!'!!

My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

Wow, that isn't the definition that I have found. Perhaps a bit less 'inflated egoic' term.
Nothing inherently 'wrong' with 'seeking'! 'Seek' on, brother.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Perhaps if you dumped the voo-doo word, it appears that simple 'tentative understanding' would suffice. Not as egoically warm and ego-satistying, though...
'Your tentative understanding has shown you that God...'
Your 'tentative understanding' tomorrow might be very different! Then comes the painful good-by to your egoic house of cards.
peace, and Gnosis!

..nameless.. wrote:[
What you perceive is true and real, can you not accept that the same is true for other Perspectives as well?

Some time back, I perceived much pain in my legs and thought it true and real.

My legs were fine. My back was screwed up though.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:

..nameless.. wrote:[
What you perceive is true and real, can you not accept that the same is true for other Perspectives as well?

Some time back, I perceived much pain in my legs and thought it true and real.

My legs were fine. My back was screwed up though.

Sorry, I don't understand with what, or why, you are arguing.
Do you disagree that 'others' should receive the same respect that you demand?

1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


some translations say "who wants" rather than "who will"

either way if God wants something that is what is going to happen

there is no biblical basis for eternal punishment in hell - but rather for universal salvation

Oh yeah - Universal Salvation. If you think US is being cast into Hell.


Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8-9
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41, 46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.
Mark 9:43-48
... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 16:22-24
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
John 5:28-29
The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

..nameless.. wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

..nameless.. wrote:[
What you perceive is true and real, can you not accept that the same is true for other Perspectives as well?

Some time back, I perceived much pain in my legs and thought it true and real.

My legs were fine. My back was screwed up though.

Sorry, I don't understand with what, or why, you are arguing.
Do you disagree that 'others' should receive the same respect that you demand?

Respect must be earned. If one must demand it then those of intelligence should not give it.

Regards
DL

Kayla wrote:1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


some translations say "who wants" rather than "who will"

either way if God wants something that is what is going to happen

there is no biblical basis for eternal punishment in hell - but rather for universal salvation

I agree.

If one is to follow some God, and he began as master of all, then he must also end, or whatever you would call it, that same way. If he loses any souls, then he cannot be called master of all.

Regards
DL