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Re: Empathy
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:43 am
by keithprosser2
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:29 pm
by Bronte
I tend to agree with SpheresOfBalance.
I believe Empathy is a function of being hurt either physically or mentally. One can usually only experience it if they can identify with it. The pain in question doesn't necessarily have to be of the same type for you to recognize it, but something similar helps.
Empathy is not all it's cracked up to be. Having empathy can be quite painful to a sensitive person. And yes I think we have to have experienced something similar to the other person's experience in order to feel empathy for them. Not sorrow or pity or guilt or regret but genuine empathy can be painful especially when we know there's not a lot we can do to alleviate the other person's suffering. Very sensitive people often work to block their empathy because it hurts so much.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:26 pm
by chaz wyman
Bronte wrote:I tend to agree with SpheresOfBalance.
I believe Empathy is a function of being hurt either physically or mentally. One can usually only experience it if they can identify with it. The pain in question doesn't necessarily have to be of the same type for you to recognize it, but something similar helps.
Empathy is not all it's cracked up to be. Having empathy can be quite painful to a sensitive person. And yes I think we have to have experienced something similar to the other person's experience in order to feel empathy for them. Not sorrow or pity or guilt or regret but genuine empathy can be painful especially when we know there's not a lot we can do to alleviate the other person's suffering. Very sensitive people often work to block their empathy because it hurts so much.
However there are many people who, regardless of the pain and suffering they receive or witness in others, never develop a sense of empathy. This is regarded as pathological, but is nonetheless common. One might be willing to offer examples of people who has seen and experienced very little suffering and yet their sense of empathy is highly advanced.
We would have to conclude that empathy is in no sense 'a function' of being hurt, that it is an element of animal nature that is evident is varying amounts in humans and other mammals.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:18 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
Thanks for this Keith. Animals are amazing! It's great to see genetics and more importantly, epigenetics at work!
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:03 am
by ..nameless..
tbieter wrote:Do you subscribe to a code of conduct? If so, identify the code. If you don't subscribe to any code, why is that the case?
No 'code', no 'rules', no 'limits', no 'boundaries', beyond the ego, we are One Omni- 'Self!'!
Operant term, Omni-!
What is, Is!
There is no 'free-will/choice' (other than as a vain 'belief'/theory). Every moment of existence is as it is! No moment can ever be 'otherwise'!
We behave according to our nature.
There is that which is perceived as 'conduct', and there are those who attempt to 'codify' it.
"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Now!!
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:45 pm
by Walgekaaren
..nameless.. wrote:tbieter wrote:Do you subscribe to a code of conduct? If so, identify the code. If you don't subscribe to any code, why is that the case?
No 'code', no 'rules', no 'limits', no 'boundaries', beyond the ego, we are One Omni- 'Self!'!
Operant term, Omni-!
What is, Is!
There is no 'free-will/choice' (other than as a vain 'belief'/theory). Every moment of existence is as it is! No moment can ever be 'otherwise'!
We behave according to our nature.
There is that which is perceived as 'conduct', and there are those who attempt to 'codify' it.
"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Now!!
Then you are an inert cemical. How do you walk the road or drive if you have 'no rules' or how do you even dress or eat?
or are you a mashine in a matrix driven by others than your brain?
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:48 pm
by Walgekaaren
Empathy is the will to bind himself for a greater cause in order to see greater things and venture to these beyond normal behavior regardless of the pain it causes to your self to understand other selves.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:30 am
by ..nameless..
Walgekaaren wrote:..nameless.. wrote:tbieter wrote:Do you subscribe to a code of conduct? If so, identify the code. If you don't subscribe to any code, why is that the case?
No 'code', no 'rules', no 'limits', no 'boundaries', beyond the ego, we are One Omni- 'Self!'!
Operant term, Omni-!
What is, Is!
There is no 'free-will/choice' (other than as a vain 'belief'/theory). Every moment of existence is as it is! No moment can ever be 'otherwise'!
We behave according to our nature.
There is that which is perceived as 'conduct', and there are those who attempt to 'codify' it.
"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Now!!
Then you are an inert cemical.
You can certainly argue that most of the Universe is comprised of "inert chemicals".
We are 'inert' chemicals, and so much more!
How do you walk the road or drive if you have 'no rules'
How do you pick your nose or scratch an itch? Do you need 'rules'?
Rule one) do not go in past the first knuckle!
two) keep nails trimmed
three) do not eat the produce...
The Universe is as it is, whether you have 'rules' or not! You think that you have free-will and choices? Really?
I need no 'rules' to walk. I simply walk.
I might break one of 'your rules' for walking, but I simply live life in accord with my nature, as does everyone else!
or how do you even dress or eat?
Simplist of acts. No rules required. No thought required. We all domit as we must.
Some must imagine 'rules'.
Interesting thing about 'rules/laws';
"The Laws
(rules) of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
or are you a mashine in a matrix driven by others than your brain?
I am not 'driven' by anything, I am a unique feature of the Universe as it Is, as are all!
Re: Empathy
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:13 pm
by chaz wyman
SpheresOfBalance wrote:Thanks for this Keith. Animals are amazing! It's great to see genetics and more importantly, epigenetics at work!
Evolution and Eg are the consequences of change, they are not forces of nature; not causes in any sense but results of natural change. They are not "AT WORK".
Re: Empathy
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:15 pm
by chaz wyman
Walgekaaren wrote:Empathy is the will to bind himself for a greater cause in order to see greater things and venture to these beyond normal behavior regardless of the pain it causes to your self to understand other selves.
Try telling that to BRONSON.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson_(prisoner)
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:29 am
by Walgekaaren
chaz wyman wrote:Walgekaaren wrote:Empathy is the will to bind himself for a greater cause in order to see greater things and venture to these beyond normal behavior regardless of the pain it causes to your self to understand other selves.
Try telling that to BRONSON.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson_(prisoner)
You really get me confused chaz
Dont you know I am a Christian so a prisoner of faith
So I would tell this not only to Bronson but to Idi Amin; Che Gevara; Stalin; Mussolini; etc.
Besides didnt Nietzsche tell in "Thus spoke Zarathustra" that we should sing praises to the better man, if we cannot defeat him
My better man is Jesus and I will be like him. - to be the overman.
You can do better than this chaz really.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:03 am
by zexwiththeuniverse
I think that moral action has to do with ones own values and nothing to do with empathy. That is the whole point of morals in my opinion. That they are individual values. If people have a strong sense of self whether they have empathy or no empathy they should act the same way based on there own morals. They are personal values and rules that should never change regardless of anything.Although I do agree that the code you are talking about does grab a hold of people, but if they had a strong sense of self and core self values that were strongly rooted they wouldn't be in a situation where something overshadowed their moral action. Although I find these codes very common, and when they are prevalent peoples morals are highly influenced and altered. But they can be altered in both negative and positive ways depending on which code they are operating under. Some people that would have morals dictated by religion would be perceived of having some good aspects to their morals because of their religious beliefs. Maybe if they were not religious they wouldn't have the morals they have. However if someone was in a violent gang because of the code they may have different morals. But I think there has to be some kind of concept that people wouldn't get themselves into situations where they would have to change their morals. There are people out there however that can be easily controlled and manipulated and those people probably don't have a strong sense of self anyway. They may have a weaker attachment to their so called morals as well. There are some cases where peoples morals are effected by empathy and in some cases those people are martyrs or probably in bad situations or on the other hand I suppose positive morals could be influenced by empathy. But I suspect these occurrences to be far less than core values. I think that healthy people have a sense of who they are and who they want to be and that is in the forefront.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:03 am
by chaz wyman
Walgekaaren wrote:chaz wyman wrote:Walgekaaren wrote:Empathy is the will to bind himself for a greater cause in order to see greater things and venture to these beyond normal behavior regardless of the pain it causes to your self to understand other selves.
Try telling that to BRONSON.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson_(prisoner)
You really get me confused chaz
Dont you know I am a Christian so a prisoner of faith
So I would tell this not only to Bronson but to Idi Amin; Che Gevara; Stalin; Mussolini; etc.
It does not matter a tinkers cuss - not everyone has empthy, so that makes you wrong.
Besides didnt Nietzsche tell in "Thus spoke Zarathustra" that we should sing praises to the better man, if we cannot defeat him
My better man is Jesus and I will be like him. - to be the overman.
You can do better than this chaz really.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:23 pm
by Walgekaaren
I didnt have empathy in the start either, but I overlived and emotional event called 'rebirth' and became a christian and now am able to have empathy. All the martyrs and grate persons have had they emotional events or encounters. - Peter renounsed Jesus 3 times that means entirely and binding by holy law. So he set himself outside of Christs kingdom, but survived because of the Lords mercy. Judas didnt make so well, but did the same thing by selling Jesus off. One bore the pain of realising your worflessness the other hanged himself. For he didnt want to suffer the pain and agony of living a thoughtfull life with empathy.
You can also learn empathy, if you have a emotional event there your inner core is challenged.
Re: Empathy
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:39 pm
by chaz wyman
Walgekaaren wrote:I didnt have empathy in the start either, but I overlived and emotional event called 'rebirth' and became a christian and now am able to have empathy. All the martyrs and grate persons have had they emotional events or encounters. - Peter renounsed Jesus 3 times that means entirely and binding by holy law. So he set himself outside of Christs kingdom, but survived because of the Lords mercy. Judas didnt make so well, but did the same thing by selling Jesus off. One bore the pain of realising your worflessness the other hanged himself. For he didnt want to suffer the pain and agony of living a thoughtfull life with empathy.
You can also learn empathy, if you have a emotional event there your inner core is challenged.
I have always had empathy and so have you. It is a normal human response to the recognition of our own species - able to imagine our place in the mind of others.
But you are confused if you think religion can give you an innate emotional response - such an idea of beyond preposterous - you would have to explain how elephants and chimpanzees have empathy but no religion.