Philosophy Now Forum

spike wrote:I really don't care much for this subject but I am going to write something because it is kind of sluggish around here — like deadsville.

It is said that love makes the world go around. It is also said that money makes the world go around. There is also the love of money. The love of money probably makes the world go faster.

I was wondering, has LOve made the world better? Did Napoleon really love Josephine? Did Napoleon try to conquer Europe for the love of Josephine?

I suppose LOve has influenced music, art and literature. In that respect it has probably made the world better. Was Democracy invented for the love of Humankind?

I don't recall there being anything written on self-love — narcissism in this issue. If it wasn't for narcissism — self-love, the mirror would probably not have being invented. (Narcissism is a word in love with 's')

Interesting. But what else is there to do in the time spent waiting to die? I doubt anyone wants to spend a lifetime pursuing things they hate.

I suppose not even Napoleon knew if his love for Josephine was real. I don't know if it is possible to know whether or not we truly love. What I mean by that is that there are always extenuating factors which could change our minds about love. Suppose, someone found out the object of their desire was just pretending to love them? Or that the person was not who they believed them to be? Suppose a man fell in love with a beautiful woman and on their wedding might he learned she was a he? Is it possible to "turn off" true love like you would a light switch?

One of my favorite loves of all time was the one between Wallis Simpson and prince Edward. I just love what he gave up for her. But then again I am looking at that love from the point of view of a woman who wants to be loved in that way. I am not looking at it from the point of view of an outsider looking in at a couple's romance.

We could try to be general and say that

love is when you focus on the positive (or what you consider to be positive) and try to make it thrive

hate is when you wish something or someone to disappear

and there is also indifference.

artisticsolution wrote:
Interesting. But what else is there to do in the time spent waiting to die? I doubt anyone wants to spend a lifetime pursuing things they hate.

I suppose not even Napoleon knew if his love for Josephine was real. I don't know if it is possible to know whether or not we truly love. What I mean by that is that there are always extenuating factors which could change our minds about love. Suppose, someone found out the object of their desire was just pretending to love them? Or that the person was not who they believed them to be? Suppose a man fell in love with a beautiful woman and on their wedding might he learned she was a he? Is it possible to "turn off" true love like you would a light switch?

One of my favorite loves of all time was the one between Wallis Simpson and prince Edward. I just love what he gave up for her. But then again I am looking at that love from the point of view of a woman who wants to be loved in that way. I am not looking at it from the point of view of an outsider looking in at a couple's romance.

I think if we made up our minds that we are in love we wouldn't be in love - much less able to change our minds about it. Love can make up our minds, but our minds can never make up love. We can know when we truly love, but its much less a knowledge of the mind than it is a knowledge of our entire being.

artisticsolution wrote:
Interesting. But what else is there to do in the time spent waiting to die? I doubt anyone wants to spend a lifetime pursuing things they hate.

I suppose not even Napoleon knew if his love for Josephine was real. I don't know if it is possible to know whether or not we truly love. What I mean by that is that there are always extenuating factors which could change our minds about love. Suppose, someone found out the object of their desire was just pretending to love them? Or that the person was not who they believed them to be? Suppose a man fell in love with a beautiful woman and on their wedding might he learned she was a he? Is it possible to "turn off" true love like you would a light switch?

One of my favorite loves of all time was the one between Wallis Simpson and prince Edward. I just love what he gave up for her. But then again I am looking at that love from the point of view of a woman who wants to be loved in that way. I am not looking at it from the point of view of an outsider looking in at a couple's romance.

I think if we made up our minds that we are in love we wouldn't be in love - much less able to change our minds about it. Love can make up our minds, but our minds can never make up love. We can know when we truly love, but its much less a knowledge of the mind than it is a knowledge of our entire being.

Bernard wrote:
I think if we made up our minds that we are in love we wouldn't be in love - much less able to change our minds about it. Love can make up our minds, but our minds can never make up love. We can know when we truly love, but its much less a knowledge of the mind than it is a knowledge of our entire being.

Interesting as I don't know I have had the same experience as you. It sounds romantic but I am not so sure if romantic sentiments equal true deep love.

I will agree that you can't help who you fall in "love/infatuation" with...it washes over your "entire being." But let me ask you this. Suppose you had "love" that washed over your entire being and you later found out it was not reciprocated. Could you still be "in love"? Or suppose you had the feeling of "love" wash over your entire being and then found out your lover was cruel. Could you still have the same blind "love" for that person?

I say no. At least with me. Part of love for me is knowing who I am falling love with. I tend to fall "in love" with personalities and individual qualities that I admire. Sure, I have had romantic love for someone...but I think of it more as infatuation in a shallow sense. I can't seem to build on it's foundation. I think it would be foolish to waste my time with someone I could not trust to live by my moral standards or scruples. It would be cruel to them and torturous to me.

artisticsolution wrote: But let me ask you this. Suppose you had "love" that washed over your entire being and you later found out it was not reciprocated. Could you still be "in love"? Or suppose you had the feeling of "love" wash over your entire being and then found out your lover was cruel. Could you still have the same blind "love" for that person?

I can't say that any true love has ever initially been a romantic wash-over for me. Its something almost unnoticeable to myself at first - a sense of tremendous respect, awe and responsibility, coupled with nuances of affection that don't derive from sentiment; or the sentiment is so abstract and shy its not possible to reconnoiter. In that sort of love you embrace an entire person for everything they are, have been and will become. It certainly isn't blind, and it does not exclude creating distance between yourself and the other... Well, there is a blind aspect to it, but there is an inner control that balances that out in the lover... hopefully.

Bernard wrote: I can't say that any true love has ever initially been a romantic wash-over for me. Its something almost unnoticeable to myself at first - a sense of tremendous respect, awe and responsibility, coupled with nuances of affection that don't derive from sentiment; or the sentiment is so abstract and shy its not possible to reconnoiter. In that sort of love you embrace an entire person for everything they are, have been and will become. It certainly isn't blind, and it does not exclude creating distance between yourself and the other... Well, there is a blind aspect to it, but there is an inner control that balances that out in the lover... hopefully.

So then true love never dies and that is how you can tell it is true love? If love dies can one ever say one loved for real? (by death of love I don't mean one's lover dies...but that only the love dies.)

Is real love rare then? If one has loved and lost can one even say they truly loved? Is shallow love so common that it is just a hopeful temporary match which confuses us into thinking that we loved or even know how to love at all?

artisticsolution wrote: So then true love never dies and that is how you can tell it is true love? If love dies can one ever say one loved for real? (by death of love I don't mean one's lover dies...but that only the love dies.)

Is real love rare then? If one has loved and lost can one even say they truly loved? Is shallow love so common that it is just a hopeful temporary match which confuses us into thinking that we loved or even know how to love at all?

Commonly, love is pleasurable feeling, passion, lust. One can love and lose and still be truly in love: love can and will crush us, but that can't be an argument against love. No, true love doesn't die. It can sort of freeze and become hard or seem to vanish like mist, but its still there in another form.

But what is true love ?

In "The Portrait of a Lady" a woman loves a very nice man and marries him. But he only skillfully pretended to love her because of her money. Then as a married man he became indifferent, he stopped pretending to love her. But he was still polite.

Can such a woman continue to love such a man ? When she realizes whom he had married ?

Does true love have to be mutual ?

duszek wrote:But what is true love ?

Exactly duszek. If we do not say that true love is different than temporary love then there is no such thing as "true" love.

So then what would be the difference between a crush and love...or lust and love? And how would we be able to know if we are loving or lusting if we can't have a bar by which to judge the difference. Now granted...I don't think we can know what love we are in until pretty much the end of our lives by looking back on hindsight...and even then we may misjudge and think one love was better than another if , for example, that love was ended prematurely by death. In that case we may build it up in our minds to be bigger than it was.

One frightening thought (at least to me) is that if we say that true love lasts a lifetime (for example) then most of us can't say that we have ever loved...as most of us don't ever reach the end of the line with the same person and the same love.

You cannot compare your love with anyone else´s love.

We can only say from hindsight that a love was not true love. For example when we realize that we had loved someone for money only because when he became poor then we stopped loving him.

duszek wrote:You cannot compare your love with anyone else´s love.

We can only say from hindsight that a love was not true love. For example when we realize that we had loved someone for money only because when he became poor then we stopped loving him.

So then what would be the difference between a crush and love...or lust and love? And how would we be able to know if we are loving or lusting if we can't have a bar by which to judge the difference.

It sounds like a cliche, but the only question that we could ask ourselves is 'would I die for this love'? If its honestly asked of ourselves the answer will be clear and decisive. Our death never lies to us.

Bernard wrote:
It sounds like a cliche, but the only question that we could ask ourselves is 'would I die for this love'? If its honestly asked of ourselves the answer will be clear and decisive. Our death never lies to us.

See...this is what I mean by romantic. That is a very romantic gesture...but is it real true love? I suppose most men would die for the ones they "loved" at least at the time. That does not mean that they would die for that person forever. It's a shallow love because it's an easy love. It's very easy to love when things are going well and everything is perfect, it is harder to love when life has taken it's toll.

I don't buy the whole "I will die for you" routine. I think it is a romantic gesture that fools us and keeps us away from truth. I mean how many men would have died for Hitler? Were they justified in their love for Hitler? Are they thinking clearly? How many men will die for their country? Are they thinking clearly to love a piece of land over another piece of land or another human being? Not to mention women don't usually exhibit the same "die for you" routine when it comes to the men they love. Does that mean they love less? No.

Just because society has made it "popular" to die for something you supposedly love doesn't mean that love is true or real. Let's see someone still die for a love who has become ugly with age. Let's see the person who will still die for the woman who has forgotten about him in lieu of the children they have brought into the world. Let's see a person die for the one who has fallen in love with another. All these things make me believe that dying for a love is not proof of true love.

I mean, How easy is it to love beauty....no challenge there. Everyone loves beauty. How easy is it to love wealth, health and youth? No challenge there...everyone would love those things. But what about when you lose those things? There is the challenge. I say it is more of a sacrifice to love in spite of hardships life brings us than it is give up our lives for the one we love.