Zombies R Us

[Atla]

If determinism is out of the picture then you totally can't show that we didn't knowingly create/author/script our thoughts.

Atla, 'logic' (not determinism) tells us that selecting our own thoughts is impossible.

• From a logical perspective, it is impossible, via infinite regress, to select our own thoughts. In other words, and for example, if I were to possess the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’”, then I just kicked-the-can-down-the-road (I committed a “turtles-all-the-way-down” fallacy), as I would then need to account for the origination of this new thought that was 'given' to me. So, no matter what, we can never self-originate (or have any say-so whatsoever!) over the content of our thoughts that in turn dictate our bodily actions.

Why can't you just create/author/script the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’” without any further origination? Can't free will be spontaneous?

[Age]

…accept moral responsibility for an action you had no choice in making...

Impenitent, we have no say-so in the matter. The acceptance, or non-acceptance of moral responsibility is determined by our thoughts (and beliefs and feelings), all of which are given to us.

Who and/or what is 'this thing', which, supposedly, gives 'you' what you call 'your thoughts'?

And, why does 'it' give 'you' human beings differing thoughts in regards to accepting or not accepting 'moral responsibility'? In fact, why has 'it' given 'you' all different thoughts about what 'morality', itself, even is, or is not?

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An irrefutable reality of life is that we humans have absolutely no say-so (no conscious control; no autonomy) over our bodily actions. N-o-n-e whatsoever. Although we like to believe otherwise, we are, in essence, just “zombies” (non-autonomous beings).

If 'this' is what you, really, want to believe is absolutely true, then okay. But, obviously, not every one believes nor agrees with and accepts your own personal belief, here, correct?

Age, yes, you are correct. Logically, it is impossible to select our own thoughts/beliefs.

Why, supposedly, not?

'I' know of some of you, people, who when what are sometimes referred to as 'negative thoughts' arise, just stop 'those thoughts' and then just change and replace 'those thoughts' with more 'positive' or more 'productive' thoughts, instead. So, in effect, selecting what you call 'their own thoughts'.

So, why do you absolutely believe and claim that it is impossible for you human beings to select what you call 'your own thoughts/beliefs'?

In fact I know of some people who have chosen, and thus selected, to not have any beliefs at all.

Therefore, what we think or believe (or agree to) is not only beyond our control, but is also individual to each and every one of us.

So, your attempt at 'arguing', here, is;

Logically, it is impossible to select your own thoughts/beliefs.
Therefore, what you think and/or believe is out of 'your' control.

Which leads to 'the obvious' that if it is absolutely impossible to have absolutely any control over 'the thoughts and beliefs', which are put forward and presented, here, under the label "rg1", then there is absolutely no way, at all, for 'you' to be able to verify if they are actually true and right, or not.

'you', obviously, have no choice over what to think or believe, no matter how False, Wrong, Inaccurate, or Incorrect those thoughts and beliefs are, exactly.

Most of us have been indoctrinated with the false belief that we are autonomous beings, with the ability to freely select our own thoughts, which in turn commands our bodily actions. For example, if I possess the thought “I will raise my arm” and then my arm raises, I then falsely believe that I had some say-so (autonomy; conscious control) over the raising of my arm.

And, just as obvious is that 'you' have been indoctrinated with False thoughts and beliefs, which 'you', now, claim you have had absolutely no control at all over as well.

Or, is one of your beliefs or thoughts that you have been indoctrinated with only the true and right thoughts and beliefs, only.

But, the problem with the above example is that I never selected the thought that determined my bodily action.

Who and/or what is the 'I', here, exactly?

“I” am a human being; a non-autonomous ‘experiencer’ of physical bodily actions and reactions (such as thoughts, feelings, and sensory sensations).

So, 'the answer' to 'the question', 'Who am 'I'?' is;

A human being, which is just a completely non-autonomous 'experiencer', correct?

Now, why were 'you' 'given' such a thought and belief as 'this', and 'others' were not?

Why were, and are, 'others' 'given' completely different and opposing 'thoughts' and 'beliefs'?

Is 'the one' who is indoctrinating all of you absolutely non-autonomous beings purposely 'giving' you all different 'thoughts and beliefs' so as to cause and create conflict and destruction among you human beings?

After all, you have absolutely no control at all, nor choice, to do absolutely any thing, other than what you are all doing, here, now, correct?

From a logical perspective, it is impossible, via infinite regress, to select our own thoughts.

Who, and/or what, is the 'our' word, here, referring to, exactly?

“Our” refers to us humans; us “zombies”; us non-autonomous experiencers of life.

But, is 'this' absolutely and irrefutably true, or not?

Either way 'you' could never ever know, right?

Obviously, if 'you' have been 'given' the belief that it is 'from a logical perspective' that it is 'impossible', via some so-called 'infinite regress', for 'you' to be able to so-call 'select your own thoughts', 'you' would have absolutely no ability to think nor believe differently, and no matter how False and Wrong 'this' even is.

What is also absolutely obvious is that if 'another' has the exact opposite thought and belief, which 'you', personally, would claim is false and wrong, but which they would obviously believe is absolutely true and right, but if 'they' can be 'given' false and wrong thoughts, and have been 'instructed' to believe, absolutely, that 'their given thoughts' are absolutely true and right, then, obviously, so to can 'you'.

While all the time 'you' are also being 'given' thoughts and beliefs that will not 'allow you' to recognize and see this irrefutable Fact as well.

In other words, and for example, if I were to possess the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’”, then I just kicked-the-can-down-the-road (I committed a “turtles-all-the-way-down” fallacy), as I would then need to account for the origination of this new thought that was given to me.

Who, and/or what, is the 'me' who is, supposedly, 'given thoughts'?

“Me” is the experiencer of these thoughts.

So, if 'you' are just 'the experiencer' of 'thoughts', then why not just 'experience' 'thoughts' only, instead of being 'the believer' of 'thoughts'?

And, who, and/or what, exactly, gives 'that me' 'new thoughts'?

Aah, that’s a great topic for a different discussion!

Why?

Why not just discuss 'this', here, now?

If 'you' really want to come, here, and claim, absolutely, that some one/thing else is 'given' 'you' thoughts, then why not 'stay around' and show and prove who and/or what 'that thing' is, exactly?

Logically, we know with objective certainty that we are just the receivers; the experiencers of our thoughts.

Why do 'you' continually call 'them', 'our thoughts' if 'those thoughts' are actually 'not yours' but were, supposedly, 'given' 'to you', by 'someone else'?

If 'you' are going to 'take on' 'those given to you thoughts', as though 'they' are now 'your thoughts', then, obviously, if 'you' now 'own them', then 'you' would have the power 'over them', and thus also be 'able to control, change, and/or select them'. That is, 'choose' which ones that 'you' want to keep and which ones that 'you' want to discard. And, if 'you' absolutely can not, then, obviously, 'they' are not 'your thoughts', at all.

Also, and by the way, if something else is 'giving' 'you' 'thoughts', then 'they' could also 'give' 'you' the 'thought and belief' that 'you' are 'seeing' and 'knowing' things with 'objective certainty' when, really, 'you are not', correct?

So then, who or what is the giver (or master controller) of these thoughts?

…could it be a mad scientist electrically prodding our brain (in a vat), creating the experiences (thoughts) that we experience?
…or could it be that we are simply game pieces in a massive gaming platform?
…or could it be that we are simply "amoeba" like organisms that auto-react to our environmental stimuli?
…or could it be…??

In other words are 'you' now saying and claiming that 'you' have absolutely no idea nor clue, at all?

Either way 'you' are 100% absolutely that there is 'some thing', somewhere, 'putting' 'thoughts' within 'that body', which one of is 'the belief' that 'it or they' are 'giving' 'you' every one of those thoughts and beliefs. And, that absolutely every one that 'you' have been 'given' is the absolutely certain true, right, accurate, and correct ones, correct?

Why do 'you' think or believe that 'you' were selected to be 'the chosen one' who was 'given' the ability to 'know' things, with 'absolute objective certainty' and 'others' were not 'so lucky'?

Therefore, and to conclude, if we don’t select the thoughts that determines our bodily action, then we don’t have say-so (or autonomy, or conscious control) over our bodily actions. Hence, Zombies R Us.

And, just because 'you' believe some thing is true, then 'that thing' 'must be' true, correct?

If logic is your guide to truth, then this is your truth.

LOL Why is every one's own, personally, 'given' so-called 'logic' the most correct and right one, only?

If you don’t believe logic provides truths (and falses), then you won’t believe this.

But, according to 'your own personal logic', here, 'i' have absolutely no choice in what thoughts or beliefs that 'i' was 'given', correct?

And, 'i' could just as simply and as easily think, believe, and say that if you do not believe logic provides truths (and so-called false), then you will not believe 'this'.

But, if you do actually believe logic provides truths (and so-called falses), then why are you not believe this absolute logical truth?

It all depends on the thoughts you’ve been given!

Which, really, makes 'your own personal thoughts, beliefs, and claims', here, not just absolutely contradictory but also absolutely absurd and nonsensical.

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Therefore, and to conclude, if we don’t select the thoughts that determines our bodily action, then we don’t have say-so (or autonomy, or conscious control) over our bodily actions. Hence, Zombies R Us.

That isn't what the philosophical arguments to do with zombies are usually about. Philosophical zombies lack sense experience and consciousness but act in exactly the way that they would if they did have such experience and thus tend to believe that what they have going on mentally is indeed consciousness.

Flash, yes, you are correct, but my point is that (philosophical) zombies and humans both lack conscious control; autonomy. Neither of us have any say-so whatsoever in our actions and behaviors.

Here's a good Youtuber describing in more detail https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLzmYjviDsk Perhaps for your purposes, to avoid confusion, puppets or marionettes would be a good metaphor for your argument.

Thank you. And yes, puppets, or marionettes (or robots), may have been a better metaphor, but I liked the "zombie" word

Well 'you' obviously had no choice, at all, other than liking the 'zombie' word, correct?

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That might be irrefutable if you could prove that determinism flows from the past (instead of, say, from the present, or from nowhere/everywhere). But have you ever actually been to the past?

It is “irrefutable” because of simple logic, not determinism.

But, only 'you' were 'given' this so-called 'simple logic'. For the very 'simple fact' that if any and/or every one disagreed with 'you', here, then they were not 'given' the exact same thoughts and beliefs, which 'you' have, here.

In other words, if we did not knowingly (consciously) create/author/script our thoughts, then logically, we can’t honestly claim that we did.

And, if we did not do something else, then logically, we can not honestly claim that we did, as well.

But, if this is the so-called 'simple logic' that 'you' were 'given', here, then, if 'I' were 'you', then 'I' would ask for a more 'logical way' to 'reason'.

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Who gave you the thought "I will raise my arm”?

Great question. See my response above to Age.

Is that 'the response' where you have implied that 'you' have absolutely no idea nor clue, at all?

Of, if 'you' 'now' want to think or believe that 'you' do have some idea or clue, then who and/or what, exactly, do 'you' think or believe has 'given' 'you' this 'new idea and/or clue', exactly?

[RG1]

Why can't you just create/author/script the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’” without any further origination? Can't free will be spontaneous?

Did you have any say-so in composing that spontaneous thought? …or did you just ‘experience’ that spontaneous thought? If we didn’t knowingly select the thought that spontaneously popped into our head, then we didn’t select it with our own free will.


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Logically, it is impossible to select our own thoughts/beliefs.

Why, supposedly, not?

Because the act of choosing our own thoughts require prior thoughts, which leads to an infinite regress, thereby making it impossible to ever self-originate any thought.

So, why do you absolutely believe and claim that it is impossible for you human beings to select what you call 'your own thoughts/beliefs'?

…are thoughts involved in making your selection?

If yes, then did you choose these particular thoughts that made your selection? (…or were these thoughts 'given' to you, i.e., just popped into your head?)
If yes, then did you choose the thoughts that chose those particular thoughts that made your selection? (...or were these thoughts 'given' to you?)
If yes, then...

As you can see, therefore, it is impossible to self-originate a thought. ALL our thoughts are 'given' to us.

• From a logical perspective, it is impossible, via infinite regress, to select our own thoughts. In other words, and for example, if I were to possess the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’”, then I just kicked-the-can-down-the-road (I committed a “turtles-all-the-way-down” fallacy), as I would then need to account for the origination of this new thought that was 'given' to me. So, no matter what, we can never self-originate (or have any say-so whatsoever!) over the content of our thoughts that in turn dictate our bodily actions.

[Atla]

Why can't you just create/author/script the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’” without any further origination? Can't free will be spontaneous?

Did you have any say-so in composing that spontaneous thought? …or did you just ‘experience’ that spontaneous thought? If we didn’t knowingly select the thought that spontaneously popped into our head, then we didn’t select it with our own free will.

I can't tell. (Nor can anyone.)

[phyllo]

RG1 wrote:
Logically, it is impossible to select our own thoughts/beliefs.

Age wrote:
Why, supposedly, not?

Because the act of choosing our own thoughts require prior thoughts, which leads to an infinite regress, thereby making it impossible to ever self-originate any thought.

Going back, there was a time when you were not alive, so you had no thoughts. Then you became alive and at some point, you had your first thought.

Therefore, there is no infinite regress.

[RG1]

Logically, it is impossible to select our own thoughts/beliefs. Because the act of choosing our own thoughts require prior thoughts, which leads to an infinite regress, thereby making it impossible to ever self-originate any thought.

Going back, there was a time when you were not alive, so you had no thoughts. Then you became alive and at some point, you had your first thought. Therefore, there is no infinite regress.

…yes, none of us can live infinitely (and have an infinite regression of thoughts), therefore we cannot logically select our own thoughts, …because it would take an infinite regression of thoughts to do so!

[Age]

Why can't you just create/author/script the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’” without any further origination? Can't free will be spontaneous?

Did you have any say-so in composing that spontaneous thought? …or did you just ‘experience’ that spontaneous thought? If we didn’t knowingly select the thought that spontaneously popped into our head, then we didn’t select it with our own free will.

Obviously, some thoughts just arise, spontaneously, if you like, from just what the 'body experiences', but, what is just as obvious, is that the 'choosing of which thoughts' to selectively express happens and occurs, as well.

It is just as simple and as easy to 'order thoughts' in a particular way, so as to express 'those thoughts', as it for 'thoughts' to just simply and easily 'arise', spontaneously, from 'bodily experiences'.

Recognizing and noticing how all of 'this' plays out and works, Is quite enlightening, actually.

In fact 'composing thoughts' is really a very simple and easy thing to do. As every speaker and writer could attest to.

**********

Logically, it is impossible to select our own thoughts/beliefs.

Why, supposedly, not?

Because the act of choosing our own thoughts require prior thoughts, which leads to an infinite regress, thereby making it impossible to ever self-originate any thought.

Remember 'this' is only what you believe is absolutely true.

And, just because one can 'choose' 'which thought' to express, never necessarily means that 'that thought' itself was a so-called 'prior thought'.

All 'new thoughts/ideas' just come from the putting together of prior thoughts to form 'new ones'. Which obviously did not just 'spontaneously appear' from no effort at all put in.

The very behavior of wondering, and considering, helps in the creating of 'new thoughts'.

The creating of 'new thoughts', or 'new ideas', are not 'those thoughts', which just 'arise', spontaneously, from outside of the body, and which enter through any of the body's five senses, and which are gathered as 'information', from which some of is stored as 'knowledge'.

So, why do you absolutely believe and claim that it is impossible for you human beings to select what you call 'your own thoughts/beliefs'?

…are thoughts involved in making your selection?

Not necessarily. Wondering and/or 'considering', itself, is what is involved in making 'a choice'. But, what one is selecting from, here, is obviously from pre-existing thoughts. Which is how and why you human beings have 'free will'.

you have the 'ability to choose', but 'your selection' is limited to by 'the thoughts/thinking' that already pre-exists, which obviously can only come from what 'that body' has previous experienced.

Which is why what is going to happen, and what will be created, was already pre-determined.

Because of 'determinism', and your 'ability to choose', freely, what you human beings all naturally want and desire will, very soon, come-to-be.

If yes, then did you choose these particular thoughts that made your selection?

Obviously, 'thoughts', themselves, are involved in 'the making' of 'the very thing' made up of thoughts, just like 'steel' is involved in making a 'steel building'. But, the 'steel' is not actually involved in the 'making of' 'the selection' of how the 'steel building' will 'look and stand'.

The 'selection', itself, of what is to be 'presented', either 'thoughts' or 'steel', is done from and through 'imagination' and 'consideration'. Now, of course 'thoughts' is involved in 'imagination' and 'consideration' because that is just what is needed for those two things to work. So, obviously 'thoughts', themselves, are 'involved in the selection process', but 'this' in absolutely no way means that 'the thoughts', which 'made the selection', were 'not chosen'.

In fact the very behavior of having a list of 'thoughts', from which to 'select' from, was 'chosen'. Those chosen thoughts' did not just randomly nor spontaneously appear.

(…or were these thoughts 'given' to you, i.e., just popped into your head?)
If yes, then did you choose the thoughts that chose those particular thoughts that made your selection? (...or were these thoughts 'given' to you?)
If yes, then...

As you can see, therefore, it is impossible to self-originate a thought. ALL our thoughts are 'given' to us.

Once again, 'you' are presumption and pre-existing beliefs, here, are what is 'answering' 'your own questions', here.

1. you did not just stop, and what for me to answer and clarify.

2. you presume, and believe, that you already knew and know 'the answers', here.

3. While you maintain your already obtained pre-existing beliefs, here, then you are not open to 'recognizing' and/nor 'seeing' any thing other than what you, already, believe is the truth, here.

4. you, obviously, are not, here, to learn, and grown, but instead just want to 'fight for' what you believe is absolutely true, and/or 'fight against' absolutely any thing that could and/or would show and prove 'your belief', here, False or Wrong.

• From a logical perspective, it is impossible, via infinite regress, to select our own thoughts. In other words, and for example, if I were to possess the thought “I select the thought - ‘I will raise my arm’”, then I just kicked-the-can-down-the-road (I committed a “turtles-all-the-way-down” fallacy), as I would then need to account for the origination of this new thought that was 'given' to me. So, no matter what, we can never self-originate (or have any say-so whatsoever!) over the content of our thoughts that in turn dictate our bodily actions.

'This body' could, for example, express 'the thoughts', 'The earth revolves around the sun', and, 'The Universe is infinite and eternal', although the only thoughts that were 'given' to 'this body' were, for example, 'The sun revolves around the earth', and, 'The Universe began and is expanding'.

And, the very reason that 'this body' can do 'this' is because 'I' can select 'which thoughts' that 'this body' will express.

Now, what 'you' are 'trying to' claim is that no 'new thoughts' can be processed. Whereas it is obviously absolutely possible to process 'new thoughts' as absolutely every new idea has come from not a previously 'given thought' but from the actual production or process of creating 'new thoughts and ideas', themselves.

[Age]

xxx

[Age]

Logically, it is impossible to select our own thoughts/beliefs. Because the act of choosing our own thoughts require prior thoughts, which leads to an infinite regress, thereby making it impossible to ever self-originate any thought.

Going back, there was a time when you were not alive, so you had no thoughts. Then you became alive and at some point, you had your first thought. Therefore, there is no infinite regress.

…yes, none of us can live infinitely (and have an infinite regression of thoughts), therefore we cannot logically select our own thoughts, …because it would take an infinite regression of thoughts to do so!

Here, 'we' have another prime example of how and when 'these people', when they want to hold onto 'a belief', will 'look for' and pick and choose any words, which they hope will somehow back up and support their already obtained and held onto belief.