Philosophy Now Forum

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:15 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:38 pm I would argue that even if determinism is the case, there's a sense in which it's not an illusion - but it would be an emergent sense of possibility rather than a fundamental one. One that considers counterfactuals very carefully.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/caus ... erfactual/

I assume you mean free will is not an illusion (not determinism). Could you contrast your thoughts with mine? Do we differ? I admit to just looking at the beginning of the Stanford article. I don't see anything yet with your sentence above that makes me think we differ. I was arguing that Bahman's idea that doubt shows determinism is false doesn't work. Do you disagree?

You said

those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.

I was saying that this offers a way where we can get rid of that word "illusion".

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:27 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:22 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:19 pm
You're looking at this situation as static and also, it seems to me, assuming everything is conscious. You are drawn to ask out Sabrina. But you feel some kind of doubt. You spend some time with that doubt. There could be hundreds of factors - guilt, shame, fear, some unconscious sense that actually she's not a nice perosn, attraction, the coolness of being with her and so on. These different feelings and thoughts get triggered by hearing she is single. We don't just work all that out in a second. And the conscious mind can think 'I should do this' and the unconscious mind may well represent more of you but it is also more suppressed. We are more like a committee that has to work things out - at least when we have doubts. The information that she is single is sinking in, hitting more facets of yourself. It's a process and, to a determinist, an inevitable one. Why does the doubt qualia undermine causation?

Because the chain of causality forks at the moment that you have doubt.

Presented with a decision -----> different parts of the self have different reactions ------> doubt feeling while the negotiation and feeling into the decision takes place ------> decision. I see no reason to assume that the feeling of doubt isn't just one of the effects of facing something without internal unity. We have parts. We are not monads. A struggle takes place, not unlike the tectonic plates churning into each other. It is unresolved for a time, then it resolves. Doubt one effect in the chain. Of course, there are simultanous effects at the same time, that is, as the doubt. The trigger is eliciting changes in the self also.

The self, your conscious mind, makes a decision when there is a doubt. Your experiences however are constructed by other selves/minds.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:29 pm You said

those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.

I was saying that this offers a way where we can get rid of that word "illusion".

Yes, I'm not attached to the word illusion. But how would you explain this?

We could call it a process of working out what one wants, given diverse reactions. No need to call anything an illusion, though no need to call it free will either. It is what is it the churning of complicated reactions before some clear tendency emerges - and of course doubt can continue and even worsen after a 'decision' is made. We can even realize we really didn't want to do X, but some part of us did it out of guilt.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:41 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:29 pm You said

those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.

I was saying that this offers a way where we can get rid of that word "illusion".

Yes, I'm not attached to the word illusion. But how would you explain this?

We could call it a process of working out what one wants, given diverse reactions. No need to call anything an illusion, though no need to call it free will either.

I would just call it "the process of making a decision."

"If I wanted to do this, could I?" - this counterfactual analysis means we can say yes, even if determinism is the case and you won't actually want to do that thing.

And then from there, "do I want to do this? What are the consequences?" You iterate over all the things you could do if you wanted to, given that you don't actually know which thing you'll end up wanting to do, you analyse the desirability of the consequences of them all, and ostensibly you choose the one you like most. And that's not always (maybe not even usually) an entirely conscious process. A lot of stuff happens in our minds without our direct awareness.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 9:30 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:41 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:29 pm You said

those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.

I was saying that this offers a way where we can get rid of that word "illusion".

Yes, I'm not attached to the word illusion. But how would you explain this?

We could call it a process of working out what one wants, given diverse reactions. No need to call anything an illusion, though no need to call it free will either.

I would just call it "the process of making a decision."

"If I wanted to do this, could I?" - this counterfactual analysis means we can say yes, even if determinism is the case and you won't actually want to do that thing.

And then from there, "do I want to do this? What are the consequences?" You iterate over all the things you could do if you wanted to, given that you don't actually know which thing you'll end up wanting to do, you analyse the desirability of the consequences of them all, and ostensibly you choose the one you like most. And that's not always (maybe not even usually) an entirely conscious process. A lot of stuff happens in our minds without our direct awareness.

Yes, I hthink people conflate what they are aware of with themselves and their minds.

And yes, I recognize using counterfactual analysis as real. Of course other times we decide 'without thinking'. IOW without any mulling or using things like counterfactual analysis. Each process seems utterly determined. But it's not an illusion that the many kinds of mulling or considering take place.

“… Simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined …,” wrote Spinoza. So, casual laws admit of no exceptions that could not have happened otherwise. Every event or state or state of affairs was caused and necessitated by a casual chain. No human action is chosen.
Work Cited
Spinoza, Benedict de. “Part III On The Origin And Nature Of The Emotions,” The Works of
Benedict de Spinoza: The Ethics, On The Improvement Of The Understanding, A Political
Treatise, A Theologico-Political Treatise and More (5 Books With Active Table of
Contents.) Kindle Edition.

puto wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 9:37 am “… Simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined …,” wrote Spinoza. So, casual laws admit of no exceptions that could not have happened otherwise. Every event or state or state of affairs was caused and necessitated by a casual chain. No human action is chosen.
Work Cited
Spinoza, Benedict de. “Part III On The Origin And Nature Of The Emotions,” The Works of
Benedict de Spinoza: The Ethics, On The Improvement Of The Understanding, A Political
Treatise, A Theologico-Political Treatise and More (5 Books With Active Table of
Contents.) Kindle Edition.

So to you doubt are not real?

Doubt are real and causal and therefore free will is false.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 10:55 pm Doubt are real and causal and therefore free will is false.

How do you define doubt?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:51 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 10:55 pm Doubt are real and causal and therefore free will is false.

How do you define doubt?

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:23 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:51 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 10:55 pm Doubt are real and causal and therefore free will is false.

How do you define doubt?

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 5:30 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:23 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:51 pm
How do you define doubt?

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Determinists will point out that a feeling is not a fact. That a person is “uncertain” has nothing to do with whether or not a thing is true…as in, my uncertainty about whether or not there is a real thing called “gravity” will not stop me from falling, if there is such a thing.

But you do raise a good question, in a sense: and that is, if we are all predetermined by forces outside of us, why do we feel and act as if we’re not? How do we explain that we are predetermined, but none of us knows it or acts like it’s true? How would we, in a predetermined universe, be predetermined not to know we were in a predetermined universe? And it’s entirely the responsibility of the Determinist to have to explain that; because on a free will account, it makes perfect sense that we would feel and act as if we’re not predetermined…the answer would simply be, “Because we are not predetermined at all.” So it’s up to the Determinist to provide an equally-satisfying account of why, if Determinism is true, we neither know nor think nor act as if it is.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 5:30 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:23 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 1:51 pm
How do you define doubt?

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Because that feeling is utterly determined. As are the others? The creature has heuristics. They oversimplify reality. A situation arises that triggers two heuristics. A process starts and the creature leans one way or the other, utterly determined. A shadow appears. It looks like a man, but not quite. I pause while walking. Inevitable processes lead to me thinking it is just the shadows of branches. Doubt ends.

We feel doubt when we have to work on something harder than other times. We can also feel frustration, confusion. These are feelings we have. And they cause us to do certain things we need to do. And they are caused by those situations. Because the little models in our heads are often not enough to instantly resolve something. So, this triggers more work and the feelings are also triggered. Like someone hitting just below the knee and the knee pops up. That's fast, bypasses all the higher brain functions. Cause to effect. Give me a math problem, well it takes longer if it's hard. Just like it takes longer for a pachinko ball to reach the bottem in a complex pachinko machine than it does in a simpler one.

Ball lightning is real therefore Santa doesn't exist.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 9:07 pm Ball lightning is real therefore Santa doesn't exist.

I've having doubts about the relevance of this assertion. Wait, I'm free then!!! Yay.
You're pointing not asserting, it lovely Zen fashion.