Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:37 am Spot on mate.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:17 am

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:36 pmIt's really only a matter of time until we are able to fully understand how consciousness works and be able to to replicate it.

Mind, and that's really what we're talkin' about, is not a product of brain activity. Sound weird, I know, but, more and more, neuroscience points in that direction. And if this true -- that mind is not a product of the brain -- all attempts to create mind in the lab are gonna fail.

Sure, we'll get some fancy emulations, but Memorex ain't synonymous with personhood.

What is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:08 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:17 am

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:36 pmIt's really only a matter of time until we are able to fully understand how consciousness works and be able to to replicate it.

Mind, and that's really what we're talkin' about, is not a product of brain activity. Sound weird, I know, but, more and more, neuroscience points in that direction. And if this true -- that mind is not a product of the brain -- all attempts to create mind in the lab are gonna fail.

Sure, we'll get some fancy emulations, but Memorex ain't synonymous with personhood.

What is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

We don't know the answer to that. We only know that the two do interact in some way, but that the way is not at all predictable, or merely chemical or biological. Conscious beings do things that are contrary to their own interests sometimes, or contrary to their chances of survival, or contrary to everything they've done before, and for which no chain of imagined physical, chemical or electrical precursors can account. But what we can safely say is that imagining a nice, tidy, 1-1 relationship between brain and mind is false. It's very messy, loose and irregular.

Many philosophers of mind have adopted the term "emergent" to describe how the mind can be related to the brain. It suggest it just "pops out" of the developing mind, historically, like some kind of jack-in-the-box: something totally different suddenly "springing" into existence when brain reaches some undefined stage of sophistication. But that's not really any kind of scientific description at all...it's just a placeholder for "be darned if I know." They don't know how mind "emerges" from brain, precisely because they are nothing like one another. Brain is meat and chemicals; mind is totally immaterial. Brain passes signals, but mind does strange operations like wanting, choosing, dreaming, valuing, assessing, knowing, noticing, relating, planning, reasoning, emoting...mind is the basis of our self-knowledge as individuals, and nobody knows how all that relates to meat (i.e. brain).

But it's not hardware and software. That much, we also know. Software, like hardware, is programmed, utterly predicatable as to what processes it can execute, reliable in relation to hardware, and man-made. Mind isn't. Mind can know, reason and choose: software can only random-generate choices from within the program parameters, which looks to us sometimes like choice, but isn't at all, anymore than shaking an 8-ball toy is "choosing."

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:08 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:17 am

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:36 pmIt's really only a matter of time until we are able to fully understand how consciousness works and be able to to replicate it.

Mind, and that's really what we're talkin' about, is not a product of brain activity. Sound weird, I know, but, more and more, neuroscience points in that direction. And if this true -- that mind is not a product of the brain -- all attempts to create mind in the lab are gonna fail.

Sure, we'll get some fancy emulations, but Memorex ain't synonymous with personhood.

What is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

Mind constitutes the emergent properties of the physical brain. Being the complex organ it is, its complexity induces a new phenomenon which strives toward a process of synthesis which transcends the functions of its individual parts, denoting an emergence which surmounts that which produces it. This is true not only for the human brain. Without the physicality of matter and energy, such emergence is not possible. In effect, its the physical brain which produces the mind as we experience it.

Damn, people here know that the mind and brain are different things and they interact, and they received the biggest Nobel ever for the discovery, and I didn't even notice.

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:08 pmWhat is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

I think a person is a composite of two very different things: spirit & substance, or, if you prefer, information & matter. Neither takes precedence. Both are necessary for a person to be a person.

edit: surmise...who do i think I am? aj? mannie?i think, not i surmise

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm ..mind is totally immaterial.

No it's not.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:26 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:09 pmIt's humans I blame

as I say: the devil, so to speak, ain't lurking in an algorithm. The devil is where it's always been: in the human soul.

Like, for example, when one wants to shoot human beings because they might be trying to take what that one, so greedily and selfishly, 'believes' is "their toothpick" or "their mouldy piece of bread".

It is in this 'type of thinking', exactly, what stories of the 'devil' are about, and where the 'devil' actual is, and resides.

The word 'devil' just refers to the invisible False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect views and assumptions that are 'believed' to be True, Right, Accurate, and/or Correct.

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:08 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:17 am

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:36 pmIt's really only a matter of time until we are able to fully understand how consciousness works and be able to to replicate it.

Mind, and that's really what we're talkin' about, is not a product of brain activity. Sound weird, I know, but, more and more, neuroscience points in that direction. And if this true -- that mind is not a product of the brain -- all attempts to create mind in the lab are gonna fail.

Sure, we'll get some fancy emulations, but Memorex ain't synonymous with personhood.

What is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

The function of the 'brain' is to deliver 'messages', to the body, so that the body will function in a way to keep 'that individual body' alive and to keep 'that species' alive and living, as well.

The function of the 'human brain' does the exact same thing, but it also functions by 'perceptually separating' the 'Whole' into different categories so that the 'Whole' can be fathomed, comprehended, and understood, fully.

The 'Mind' is an always OPEN aThing, which is what has allowed human beings to be able to learn, create, and achieve all that they have, so far, when this is being written, and all of what 'will come'.

'Consciousness' just refers to actual 'Awareness', Itself. For example, there is 'consciousness', (small 'c'), which is what adult human beings have, when they are 'aware' of just some things, but are not yet fully Aware nor fully 'Self-aware', as you adult human beings when this is being are certainly not. And, then there is 'Consciousness', Itself, which is 'Aware' of absolutely every thing. Like when being able to answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?' properly, and Correctly. Plus, of course, all of the other Truly meaningful questions posed and asked, and are answered in a way that fits perfectly together, providing a crystal clear irrefutable picture of ALL-THERE-IS, or Everything, as One.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:08 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:17 am

Mind, and that's really what we're talkin' about, is not a product of brain activity. Sound weird, I know, but, more and more, neuroscience points in that direction. And if this true -- that mind is not a product of the brain -- all attempts to create mind in the lab are gonna fail.

Sure, we'll get some fancy emulations, but Memorex ain't synonymous with personhood.

What is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

We don't know the answer to that.

Obviously, 'you' human beings, in the days when this was being written, did not yet know the answer to that, nor the answers to many of the other meaningful questions that you been asking for hundreds and thousands of years previously, also. This is blatantly obvious and can be clearly seen and noticed throughout your writings and speeches.

However, 'we' do already know the answer to that, and many, many other things.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm We only know that the two do interact in some way, but that the way is not at all predictable, or merely chemical or biological. Conscious beings do things that are contrary to their own interests sometimes, or contrary to their chances of survival, or contrary to everything they've done before, and for which no chain of imagined physical, chemical or electrical precursors can account.

But, all of 'your' hypocritical, inconsistent, contradictory misbehaviour have been 'accounted for' and well understood. Yet, obviously not to you ones, in the days when this is being written.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm But what we can safely say is that imagining a nice, tidy, 1-1 relationship between brain and mind is false. It's very messy, loose and irregular.

In fact, on many, many occasions with you adult human beings the brain is consistently trying to work against or in contradiction to the Mind, and to how the Mind works, exactly. And, this is mostly because of the belief-system, itself.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm Many philosophers of mind have adopted the term "emergent" to describe how the mind can be related to the brain.

'Without any actual success'I will add.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm It suggest it just "pops out" of the developing mind, historically, like some kind of jack-in-the-box: something totally different suddenly "springing" into existence when brain reaches some undefined stage of sophistication.

Which is why it took some people so, so long to find, arrive at, and see the actual Truth here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm But that's not really any kind of scientific description at all...it's just a placeholder for "be darned if I know."

Well, at least, this is actually irrefutably True.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm They don't know how mind "emerges" from brain, precisely because they are nothing like one another.

And, also for the simple fact that the, One and only, 'Mind'
does not emerge from the brain.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm Brain is meat and chemicals; mind is totally immaterial.

And, what are you basing this on, exactly, "immanuel can"?

What prove do you actually have that the Mind is, totally, 'immaterial'?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm Brain passes signals, but mind does strange operations like wanting, choosing, dreaming, valuing, assessing, knowing, noticing, relating, planning, reasoning, emoting...mind is the basis of our self-knowledge as individuals, and nobody knows how all that relates to meat (i.e. brain).

1. 'you', human beings, or 'people' do those things. The 'Mind' does not

2. 'I' know, exactly, how all that relates to the 'brain'. But, then again, 'I' also know and understand who and what 'I' am, and who and what 'you' are, exactly, and fully, whereas 'you', people, did not, when this is being written.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm But it's not hardware and software. That much, we also know. Software, like hardware, is programmed, utterly predicatable as to what processes it can execute, reliable in relation to hardware, and man-made. Mind isn't. Mind can know, reason and choose: software can only random-generate choices from within the program parameters, which looks to us sometimes like choice, but isn't at all, anymore than shaking an 8-ball toy is "choosing."

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:55 pm

Eudaimonia23 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:08 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:17 am

Mind, and that's really what we're talkin' about, is not a product of brain activity. Sound weird, I know, but, more and more, neuroscience points in that direction. And if this true -- that mind is not a product of the brain -- all attempts to create mind in the lab are gonna fail.

Sure, we'll get some fancy emulations, but Memorex ain't synonymous with personhood.

What is the function of the brain then? How does it relate to the mind/consciousness?

Mind constitutes the emergent properties of the physical brain. Being the complex organ it is, its complexity induces a new phenomenon which strives toward a process of synthesis which transcends the functions of its individual parts, denoting an emergence which surmounts that which produces it. This is true not only for the human brain. Without the physicality of matter and energy, such emergence is not possible. In effect, its the physical brain which produces the mind as we experience it.

How sure are you if this "dubious"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm brain is meat and chemicals; mind is totally immaterial. Brain passes signals, but mind does strange operations like wanting, choosing, dreaming..

Immaterial? Are you suggesting our human mind is not OF matter?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm brain is meat and chemicals; mind is totally immaterial. Brain passes signals, but mind does strange operations like wanting, choosing, dreaming..

Immaterial? Are you suggesting our human mind is not OF matter?

Indeed. It's quite manifest that it's not.

That's not even a radical suggestion: the only people who even hope it will turn out to be otherwise are ideologically-desperate Materialists, who don't know how it would work but who prophesy without basis that somehow it will turn out that way when more data comes in. All the serious philosophers of mind have moved well beyond crass Materialism, and are trying to deal with the "emergence" problem. Check it out, and you'll see: Alexander, or Broad, or Penfield, or Jaegwon Kim, or Chalmers...nobody is any longer trying to rest in the belief that mind and brain are identical material properties.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:56 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:49 pm brain is meat and chemicals; mind is totally immaterial. Brain passes signals, but mind does strange operations like wanting, choosing, dreaming..

Immaterial? Are you suggesting our human mind is not OF matter?

Indeed. It's quite manifest that it's not.

That's not even a radical suggestion: the only people who even hope it will turn out to be otherwise are ideologically-desperate Materialists, who don't know how it would work but who prophesy without basis that somehow it will turn out that way when more data comes in. All the serious philosophers of mind have moved well beyond crass Materialism, and are trying to deal with the "emergence" problem. Check it out, and you'll see: Alexander, or Broad, or Penfield, or Jaegwon Kim, or Chalmers...nobody is any longer trying to rest in the belief that mind and brain are identical material properties.

Yippeee!!

I love a challenge. David Chalmers btw is an ol' chum of mine ...lol

Right!

So where we at?

1. You state mind does not have any material property.

Can we agree that matter is as sub-atomic as a photon, indeed anything we comprehend as "matter"? ..indeed anything we can perceive that exists?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 5:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:56 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:02 pm

Immaterial? Are you suggesting our human mind is not OF matter?

Indeed. It's quite manifest that it's not.

That's not even a radical suggestion: the only people who even hope it will turn out to be otherwise are ideologically-desperate Materialists, who don't know how it would work but who prophesy without basis that somehow it will turn out that way when more data comes in. All the serious philosophers of mind have moved well beyond crass Materialism, and are trying to deal with the "emergence" problem. Check it out, and you'll see: Alexander, or Broad, or Penfield, or Jaegwon Kim, or Chalmers...nobody is any longer trying to rest in the belief that mind and brain are identical material properties.

So where we at?

1. You state mind does not have any material property.

Stay with what I've said, not paraphrasing. I am being careful in how I am putting it. I am not saying there is no relation between physical and mental activities. I'm saying that relationship is highly problematic, and definitely not 1:1. I'm saying what the philosophers of mind have been saying for many years now, and I'm saying the thing that raises the question as to how mind "emerges" (to use their word) from brain. I'm not saying more yet.